Brand new genetic study on the origins of Huns, Avars and Hungarian Conquerors

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

01-24-2022, 03:10 PM
rothaer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blondie

Okay i accept the uralic origin of conquerors, the turkic theory seems outdated. But if the conquerors brought the hungarian language why are these locals used hungarian topography, names, and words before Árpáds? There is no hungarian sources about the conquest nowadays, because the tatars burned everything, but when Anonymus lived and wrote the Gesta Hungarorum these original sources are still existed, and this book is based on these original sources about conquest, and this is the most authentic source about the conquest and the ethnic and politic relations in the Carpathian Basin. And Anonymus clearly talked about the hungarus ethnicity, who lived here before nomad magyars. Another fact, in the medieval Hungary this hungarus vs conqueror identity still existed, the noble class considered themselves as descedants of the 7 conqueror tribe, but the hungarian speaker peasants had hungarus identity and they did not identify themselves with the conquerors. The academic hungarian historical science also take differece between the hungarus (commoners) and the conquerors (elite), this is also fact.

1. I'd guess there were ethnically different tribes. Arthur Koestler wrote in "The Thirteenth Tribe" that there was even one (or more?) tribe said to be observant to Jewish laws. (It was a long time ago that I read it and unfortunately I don't recall the exact source.) So having some Turkic Khazar tribe among them seems well possible.

2. Can you briefly tell how is determeined that someone used Hungarian topography, names, and words before Árpáds?

3. I appreciate all old sources including Gesta Hungarorum, but there could well be an erroneous statement. The reputation of that text in the aspect of authenticity is not the best.
01-24-2022, 03:17 PM
Turul Karom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunai

It's not my problem that you can't interpret a scientific paper. There's nothing you wrote in that post that proves Hungarian Conquerors were Central Asian Turkic people. All the quotations I presented from the article state that Turkic genetic input was minor among them, around 15%, which is notable but not at all substantial. I never spoke about culture and religious aspects but strictly genetics, that is a way different topic. You can create a new thread in which you can speak about none-genetics aspects of Hungarian Conquerors.

It's not my problem if you don't know the Latin alphabet or know how to count, then. You've waxed poetic about Uralics and haplogroup N in post #4, but completely ignore the dominance of R1. Not only is N a minority, but it is not even the largest haplogroup by %. Yet you claim that these must be the "core" of the conquerors because N is associated with Mansi? Amazingly talented leap of faith. You're the one who had to frame the article in post #4. Also, 15%? Really? Is it because you are again, like so many other people, attributing "Turkicness" to exclusively East Asian admixture? Now you are just making the lines tighter intentionally as to what is "Turkic" so as to again, minimize the input.

At least now we live in a time where the question is not "if" but "how much." You can move your goalposts all you'd like, but you will never erase these facts without erasing the Hungarian identity.
01-24-2022, 03:25 PM
Nanushka

actually I have a couple of words on interpretations of this study too

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunai

Hungarian Conquerors
"The Conquerors, who arrived in the Carpathian Basin after the Avars, had distinct genomic background with elevated levels of western Eurasian admixture. They carried very similar genomes to modern Bashkirs and Tatars, in agreement with our previous results from
uniparental markers. Their genomes were shaped by several admixture events, of which the most fundamental was the Mezhovskaya-Nganasan admixture around the late Bronze Age, leading to the formation of a “proto-Ugric” gene pool. This was part of a general
demographic process, when most Steppe_MLBA populations received an eastern Khovsgol related Siberian influx together with a BMAC influx, and ANA related admixture became ubiquitous on the eastern Steppe establishing the Scytho-Siberian gene pool. Consequently
proto-Ugric groups could be part of the early Scytho-Siberian societies of the late Bronze Age-early Iron Age steppe-forest zone in the northern Kazakhstan region, in the proximity of the Mezhovskaya territory.

Our data support linguistic models, which predicted that Conquerors and Mansis had a common early history. Then Mansis migrated northward, probably during the Iron Age, and in isolation they preserved their Bronze-Age genomes. In contrast the Conquerors stayed
at the steppe-forest zone and admixed with Iranian speaking early Sarmatians, also attested by the presence of Iranian loanwords in the Hungarian language. This admixture likely happened when Sarmatians rose to power and started to integrate their neighboring tribes
before they occupied the Pontic-Caspian Steppe.

This seems a good study with good findings but some interpretations here and in the thread I noticed dont fit in modern academia and sound insistingly keeping the old cliche. Not all the Sarmatians spoke iranian, you should accept the fact that Scythians as a whole were predominantly proto-Turkic especially their rulers, Royal Scythians spoke Turkic so did their branches like Sarmatians and Cimmerians, many academicians like Kazi Laypanov, Myrfatih Zakiev and Zaur Hasanov wrote about this fact. Iranic groups were only peripheral peoples in the south like maybe Sogdians that they ruled and probably got mixed later on, so I laugh at this term 'iranic' when someone try to use it as if this was a major or ruling class.

Secondly Ural itself is a Turkic word, there is no etymological explanation of it other than Turkic in the whole world, which contains the ancient root word 'Ur' that used to denote proto-Turks, just like Tur, Tar or As, so Ur-al refers to ancient Turks only and this is an academic fact. It keeps on living in the names or surnames in Turks today and this is the case that you can only find among Turkics, and it tells a lot. So whoever we are talking in terms of Uralic, those peoples are either Turkics or share a serious history with Turks. The theory of Altaic origin of Turks in a big hoax today and severely subject to criticism, someway discarded already, professors like Osman Karatay and Mehmet Bayraktar are the proponents of Uralic theory. This theory spans the earliest times of Turks, not a thousand year ago or two

The term Ugor is not far from Turkic origin either, it has been debated if it is an ethnonym related to Ogur and Uygur, soon will be out. Genetically that Finn-Ugric y-DNA N1C1 belongs to Turkic Yakut-Sakha people tells a lot about this kinship

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunai

Huns
"The genomic history of Huns Avars and Conquerors revealed in this study reconciles with historical, archaeological and linguistic sources. Our data shows that the leader strata of both European Huns and Avars originated from the area of the former Xiongnu Empire, from present day Mongolia, and both groups can be traced back to early Xiongnu ancestors. Northern Xiongnus were expelled from Mongolia in the second century CE, and during their westward migration Sarmatians were one of the largest groups they confronted. Sergey Botalov presumed the formation of a Hun-Sarmatian mixed culture in the Ural region before the appearance of Huns in Europe22, which fits the significant Sarmatian ancestry detected in our Hun samples, though this ancestry had been present in late Xiongnus as well. Thus our data are in accordance with the Xiongnu ancestry of European Huns, claimed by several historians. We also detected Goth- or other German-type genomes among our Hun period samples, again consistent with historical sources."

Avars
"Our data are compatible with the Rouran origin of Avar elite, though the single low coverage Rouran genome provided a poor fit in the qpAm models. The elite preserved very ancient east Asian genomes with undisputable origin, as had been also inferred from Y-Hg data, however just half of the Avar-cline individuals had Avar_Asia_Core ancestry, implicating diverse origin of the Avar population. Our models
indicate that the Avars incorporated groups with Xiongnu/Hun_Asia_Core and Iranian ancestries, presumably the remnants of the European Huns and Alans or other Iranian peoples on the Pontic Steppe, as suggested by Kim 2013. People with different origin were
seemingly distinguished, as samples with Hun-related genomes were buried in separate cemeteries."

This part needs historical clarification otherwise may be misleading. Avars and Huns did have Scythian ancestry and Avars are coming from a certain branch of Huns, namely White Huns who also included Kidarites-Kionites (Red Huns) and were later on joined by Hephtalites. And they were ruled by leading clan called 'Var(Uar)-Hun' who were allies with Juan-Juans (Rourans as passed in the article). This alliance brought about the end of White Huns as they were attacked by the Turkish Kaganate who claimed Rouran elites. The crucial thing is White Huns made royal marriages to Rourans causing some mixing with them overall in the population. This must have been the reason for the east Asian genomes and some mongoloid characteristics found in Avar graves today. Rourans were mainly mongoloid, so it is no wonder. And not to mention its existence among Huns as a whole since they been to today's Mongolia and mixed with some sinid populations to certain degrees

These are also historical facts that should be taken into consideration other than the westerner interpretations and should be made reference to
01-24-2022, 03:36 PM
Ajeje Brazorf

Modern averages

Code:

Abazin,37.25,34.25,0,1,19.5,5.125,3.125 Abkhasian,47.6666667,37.8888889,0,0,14,0.6666667,0 Adygei_Krasnodar,39.2,35.6,0,0.5,20.8,2.5,1.1 Adygei_Shovgenovsky,38.7,36,0,0.5,20.2,2.8,1.5 Alaskan_Athabskan,0,0,3,0,18,67,11 Albanian,17.5,53.5,0,5.3333333,22.8333333,0.3333333,0.5 Aleut,2,23,0,7.8571429,34.2857143,29.1428571,4 Altaian_Chelkan,4.25,11.5,0.25,1.375,28,38.375,16.125 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky,5.6666667,9,0.1666667,0.6666667,12.1666667,45.6666667,26.5 Altaian_Ongudaisky,4.5555556,8.2222222,0,0.3333333,13.1111111,46.6666667,26.7777778 Armenian,45.2,44.2,0,0,10.3,0.1,0 Armenian_Hemsheni,43.25,43.375,0,0.75,12.25,0.125,0 Assyrian,46.5,43.6,0,0.1,9.3,0.2,0.1 Avar,39.1111111,28.6666667,0,0.1111111,31.3333333,0.8888889,0 Azeri,42.4444444,37,0,0.1111111,13.3333333,3.1111111,4 Azeri_Dagestan,41.125,34.625,0,0.5,18.125,1.75,3.375 Balkar,37.8,35,0,0.5,19.7,4,2.9 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk,6.7142857,24.1428571,0,5.2857143,32,23.7142857,8.1428571 Bashkir_Baimaksky,8.125,19,0,3.125,27.5,30.25,11.875 Bashkir_Davlekanovo,9.4444444,25.4444444,0,6.1111111,30.1111111,21.7777778,7.1111111 Bashkir_Ianaul,7.125,27.375,0,6.625,34.25,20.375,4.125 Bashkir_Ilishevsky,8.1666667,27.6666667,0,6.3333333,33.5,19.6666667,4.6666667 Bashkir_Ishimbai,8.25,21,0,4,28.25,28,10.5 Bashkir_Karaidelsky,6.5,25.75,0,5.5,33.5,22.5,5.75 Bashkir_Kugarchinsky,7.8571429,20.1428571,0,3.4285714,27.8571429,30.2857143,10.8571429 Basque,6.2,54.3,0,14.3,24.9,0,0.2 Belarusian,4.3,40.9,0,12.8,40.8,0.6,0.6 Besermyan,7,25.8333333,0,6,38.5,21.5,0.8333333 Bulgarian,15,49.8888889,0,6.6666667,27.5555556,0.4444444,0.4444444 Buryat_Aginsky,3.8,4.6,0,0.4,4,53.2,34.4 Buryat_Duldurginsky,3.5,5,0,0.5,3.25,51.75,36.5 Buryat_Irkutsk,3.9,5.4,0,0.8,4,52.4,33.8 Buryat_Khorinsky,3.6,5,0,0.2,3.4,53.2,34.6 Buryat_Zakamensky,4,5.1666667,0,0.3333333,3.6666667,53.3333333,33.6666667 Chechen,39.4444444,33.2222222,0,0,24.6666667,1.6666667,0.6666667 Chukchi,0,0,0,0,10.2,89.7,0 Chuvash_Cheboksary,5.5,27.6,0,8,35.7,20.9,2.3 Chuvash_Tatarstan,5,29.6666667,0,8.5,37,18.1666667,2 Circassian,37.4444444,34.8888889,0,0.6666667,20,3.7777778,3 Croatian,9.9,47.9,0,8.8,32.9,0,0.4 Cypriot,35.125,53.375,0,0.75,10,0.25,0.5 Czech,6.3,44.6,0,11,37.8,0.1,0.2 Dai,0,0,0,0,0.1,0,99.9 Darginian,38.625,27.875,0,0,32.875,0.625,0 Daur,0.6666667,1.4444444,0,0,0.4444444,35.4444444,61.7777778 Dolgan,1.75,6,0,1,5.5,68.75,17.25 Dungan,5,3.5,0,0.1,3.8,12.6,75.1 Enets,0,6.3333333,0,1.6666667,16.3333333,75.6666667,0 English,5.7,46.4,0,10.5,37.1,0,0 Estonian,0.6,38.3,0,14.2,44.9,1.5,0.4 Even,1.3333333,13.6666667,0,3.6666667,12.8888889,57.1111111,11.4444444 Evenk_FarEast,0.6,7.2,0,2,6.4,54,29.8 Evenk_Transbaikal,0.5,2.625,0,0.375,1,88.125,7.625 Ezid,47.375,35.625,0.375,1.375,11.875,2.5,1 Finnish,1.6,37.2,0,12.7,41.8,6.6,0.3 French,7.5,52.1,0.1,12.4,27.6,0,0.1 Gagauz,17.5555556,48.4444444,0.1111111,6,25.8888889,1.5555556,0.4444444 Georgian,47.3333333,41.3333333,0,0,11.1666667,0,0 Georgian_Turkey,46.1428571,40.8571429,0.2857143,0,11.5714286,0.7142857,0.4285714 Georgian_Zugdidi,49.125,39.25,0,0,11.875,0,0 Greek.WGA,19.7,52.7,1.2,4.8,21,0.2,0.5 Hezhen,0.25,0.25,0,0,0.125,39,60.5 Hungarian,8.1,45.95,0,10.15,34.75,0.6,0.65 Icelandic,4.125,43.625,0,12,40,0,0 Ingushian,39.3,34.2,0,0.2,22.6,2.5,1.2 Italian_North,14.6,54.9,0.3,7.3,22.8,0,0 Italian_South,25,53.75,0,3.75,16.75,0,0.25 Itelmen,0,0,0,0,9,90.4285714,0.4285714 Kabardinian,35.1111111,34.8888889,0,0.5555556,21.2222222,5.6666667,2.4444444 Kaitag,37.75,29.5,0,0,32.25,0.5,0 Kalmyk,3.9,7.4,0,0.4,7,41.6,39.8 Karachai,38.7,33.7,0,0.7,20.2,4.3,3 Karakalpak,12.9,16.7,0,2,14.8,29,24.7 Karelian,0.3,35.7,0,13.6,42.2,8,0.1 Kazakh,9.3333333,14.6666667,0.6666667,2,13.3333333,30.3333333,29.3333333 Kazakh_Argyn,9.6666667,11.6666667,0.3333333,2.3333333,12.3333333,33.6666667,30.3333333 Kazakh_Kypchak,9.1666667,13,0,0.8333333,13.6666667,32.8333333,30.8333333 Kazakh_Naiman,9.3333333,13.5,0,1.5,13.5,31.6666667,30.1666667 Ket,0,4,0,0.1,27.8,67.9,0 Khakass_Askizskiy,3.3333333,9.3333333,0.1666667,0.5,22.3333333,46,18.6666667 Khakass_Beiskiy,4,7,0,0.4,17,49.6,22.2 Khakass_Kachin,3.875,9.875,0,1,19.375,44.5,21.25 Khamnegan,2.7,4.5,0,0.5,3.2,54.2,34.8 Kubachinian,40.3333333,27.6666667,0,0,31.8333333,0.1666667,0 Kumyk,37.75,34.625,0,0.25,22.625,2.875,2.125 Kurd,48.875,36.5,0,0.375,12.375,1.25,0.75 Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan.DG,8,11.1,0,0.5,12.4,33.9,34 Kyrgyz_Tajikistan,10.75,10.75,0,1,13,32,32.75 Lak,39,28.1111111,0,0,32.1111111,0.7777778,0.1111111 Lezgin,40.3333333,31.2222222,0,0,27.3333333,0.8888889,0.4444444 Lithuanian,0.9,39.3,0,15.5,44.2,0,0.2 Mansi,0.1111111,12.5555556,0,2.8888889,34.7777778,49.5555556,0 Mari.SG,4,23,0,8,36,27,1 Miao,0,0,0,0,0,0,100 Moldavian,15.4,49.8,0,6.2,27.3,1.1,0.3 Mongol,4.5,5.1,0,0.3,4.9,41.3,43.9 Mongol_Sainnoyon,3.875,5.125,0,0,3.625,42,44.75 Mongol_Zasagt,3.5714286,4.7142857,0,0.4285714,4.7142857,40.7142857,46 Mongola,0.6666667,1.6666667,0,0,2,21.5,74.5 Mordovian,5.4,35.4,0,11.1,40.4,6.4,1.7 Nanai,0,0,0,0,0,58.2,41.8 Naxi,0.1111111,0,0,0,0,8.7777778,91.1111111 Negidal,0,0,0,0,0,65,35 Nganasan,0,0,0,0.1,1.2,98.6,0 Nivh,0,0,0,0,0,57,43 Nogai_Astrakhan,9.3333333,18,0,2.1666667,17,27.5,25.8333333 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia,26.2222222,28.4444444,0,1.4444444,19.5555556,12.4444444,11.5555556 Nogai_Stavropol,13.1,20.3,0,1.4,17.6,24.3,23.1 Norwegian,4.3,43.6,0,11.7,39.9,0.2,0.2 Orcadian,5.4,44.2,0,11.3,38.8,0,0 Oroqen,0.1111111,0.8888889,0,0,0.1111111,51.2222222,47.7777778 Ossetian,39.5454545,34.9090909,0,0.1818182,19.5454545,3.2727273,2.4545455 Romanian,12.6,49.9,0,6.8,29.5,0.6,0.7 Russian_Archangelsk_Krasnoborsky,1.5,36.1666667,0,12.8333333,40.3333333,8.1666667,0.5 Russian_Archangelsk_Leshukonsky,0.5,32.5,0,11.5,42,14,0.5 Russian_Belgorod,5.5,41.75,0,12.5,39.25,1,0.25 Russian_Cheremisinovsky,5.25,40.25,0,12.75,39,1.25,1.25 Russian_Ershichi,5.2857143,40.1428571,0,13.7142857,39.4285714,0.7142857,0.4285714 Russian_Kaluga,3.5,40.25,0,12.75,41,2,0 Russian_Orel,5.25,40,0,12.25,39.5,2.75,0.25 Russian_Pskov,2.3333333,38.8333333,0,14.5,42.3333333,1.3333333,0.8333333 Russian_Ryazan,6.6,38.8,0,12.6,38.8,2.4,1 Russian_Spassk,4.7142857,39,0,11.8571429,40.8571429,2.8571429,0.5714286 Russian_Tver,5.25,38.5,0,12.25,39,4.25,0 Russian_Vologda,3.25,36.125,0,12.75,40.625,6.75,0.5 Russian_Yaroslavl,2.3333333,38.6666667,0,12.3333333,42,4,0.3333333 Saami.DG,0,25.75,0,12,40,22.25,0 Sardinian,9,67.4,2.6,9.6,10.7,0.3,0.1 Scottish,5.75,44,0,10.5,39.5,0,0 Selkup,0.1,7.6,0,1.4,25.9,64.9,0.2 Selkup_Farkovo,0,5.625,0,0.25,29.75,64.25,0 Selkup_Turukhansk,0,6.3333333,0.6666667,0.3333333,31.1666667,61.5,0 She,0,0,0,0,0,0,100 Shor_Khakassia,3.8333333,8.3333333,0,0.1666667,26.1666667,45.6666667,15.6666667 Shor_Mountain,4.4285714,9,0,0.1428571,26.1428571,43.7142857,16.8571429 Sicilian,22.5,54.125,1.125,4,17.25,0.875,0.625 Spanish,10.7777778,53.2222222,0.8888889,10.4444444,24,0.1111111,0.8888889 Tabasaran,39.3,29.9,0,0,29.6,0.8,0.6 Tajik,36.7142857,20.2857143,0,2.4285714,29.4285714,4,7.2857143 Tajik_Aininsky,34.3,22.3,0,1.4,23.1,7.3,11.4 Tajik_Gissar,33.5,22,0,2,24.5,8,10.5 Tajik_Kulyab,36.1428571,22.2857143,0,0.8571429,25.5714286,5.8571429,9.1428571 Tatar_Irtysh_Barabinsk,6,13.5,0,1.5,23,38.5,17.5 Tatar_Kazan,8.4615385,30.4615385,0,7.1538462,34.2307692,15.0769231,4.8461538 Tatar_Mishar,7.1,33.5,0.1,8.8,34.8,10.5,5 Tatar_Siberian_Tobolsk,7.6,16.6,0,2.6,25.2,34.2,13.8 Tatar_Siberian_Tyumen,8.6666667,17,0,2.3333333,25,31,15.6666667 Tatar_Siberian_Vagaysky,8.6,16.6,0,3,24.6,32.8,14.6 Tatar_Siberian_Yalutorovskiy,7,19.8333333,0,2.8333333,28.5,29,12.6666667 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye,4,13.2,0,2.4,31.4,43.8,5.2 Tatar_Tomsk,8.5,18,0,5,24,27,18 Tatar_Volga,9.5,31,0,7.5,33.5,12.5,5 Teleut,5.5,10,0,2,17.5,44,21.5 Tlingit,1.75,17.25,0,5,32.25,38.25,5 Todzin,1.3333333,4,0,0,7.6666667,73.6666667,13.3333333 Tofalar,0.6,5.5,0,1.1,9.4,75.3,7.8 Tu,2.5,1.6,0,0.1,2.4,14.3,78.9 Tubalar_Altai,6.2,10.6,0,1.2,24.4,38.8,18.4 Tubalar_Artybash,5.4,9.3,0,0.3,24.6,40.7,19.3 Tujia,0,0,0,0,0,2.125,97.875 Turkish,35.1,42.8,0,1.1,13.6,4.2,3.1 Turkmen,24.375,22.25,0,0.75,17.25,18,16.875 Tuvinian,2.8,5.1,0,0.3,9.8,58.5,23.2 Tuvinian_Erzin,2.8,5.6,0,0,7.8,55,28.8 Udmurt,4.8,23.5,0,5.1,41.4,25,0.2 Ukrainian,5.8333333,40.8333333,0,12.1666667,39.8333333,1.3333333,0.5 Ukrainian_Lviv,7.6666667,42.3333333,0.3333333,11.6666667,36.6666667,1,0.3333333 Ukrainian_North,4.625,41.875,0.25,12.25,39.5,0.625,0.875 Ukrainian_Sumskaya,5.3333333,42,0,12.6666667,39.3333333,0.6666667,0.6666667 Ulchi,0,0,0,0,0,61.7272727,38.2727273 Uyghur,18.6,13.6,0,0.7,15.4,18.4,33.5 Veps,0.4,34.5,0,12.9,42.9,9.4,0.1 Xibo,0.8571429,1.7142857,0,0,0.4285714,26.7142857,70.4285714 Yakut,2.1,4.3,0,0.6,4.3,65.6,23.2 Yi,0,0,0,0,0,9.2222222,90.7777778 Yukagir_Forest,0.2727273,3,0,1,5.9090909,83.9090909,5.7272727

New Hungarian samples

Code:

Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core1:KFP-31,0,0,6,0,1,67,26 Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:AN-376,0,0,11,0,0,56,33 Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:FU-215,0,2,9,0,1,62,26 Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:KFP-30a,0,1,10,0,2,54,33 Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:MM-245,0,0,9,0,0,61,30 Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core1:KFP-7,0,0,8,0,0,62,29 Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:CS-465,0,1,5,0,3,58,33 Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:FGD-4,0,0,11,0,2,54,32 Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:KV-3369,0,2,10,0,1,61,27 Hungary_Late_Avar_Asia_Core2:CSPF-213,0,3,7,0,1,57,31 Hungary_Middle_Avar_Asia_Core2:CSPF-37,0,2,9,0,1,60,28 Hungary_Avar_Early:ACG-19,5,17,7,2,6,41,21 Hungary_Avar_Early:AN-286,0,39,11,15,35,0,1 Hungary_Avar_Early:FU-193,10,40,11,3,20,7,7 Hungary_Avar_Early:HC-168,19,39,11,1,18,9,4 Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-61,11,26,10,2,17,21,13 Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-80,2,5,10,1,9,42,31 Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-83,6,19,10,3,15,27,20 Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-131,7,55,15,3,20,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-151,1,3,13,1,9,40,33 Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-240,9,26,12,1,22,20,10 Hungary_Avar_Early:MS-43,8,48,14,5,23,2,1 Hungary_Avar_Early:MT-29,4,19,12,1,10,33,21 Hungary_Avar_Early:SSD-17,12,48,10,6,23,1,0 Hungary_Avar_Early:SSD-58,10,54,13,1,21,1,0 Hungary_Avar_Early:SZF-181,5,40,10,7,31,4,3 Hungary_Avar_Early:SZF-371,14,45,12,3,16,7,3 Hungary_Avar_Early:SZK-102,14,57,15,0,14,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Early:SZK-213,7,27,13,0,6,29,18 Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-76,13,29,10,0,20,16,12 Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-127,7,22,10,0,14,26,20 Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-187,3,6,10,0,12,43,26 Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-829,11,44,9,10,27,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Early:SZRV-54,11,23,11,1,17,20,17 Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite:DK-701,3,33,10,9,34,8,3 Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite:KFP-6,1,21,8,6,17,31,15 Hungary_Avar_Early_EU_Core3:SZF-43,7,50,11,7,25,0,0 Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle:ALT-77,10,52,10,4,23,0,1 Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle:KPM-14,14,54,14,2,16,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-369,8,44,12,7,24,2,2 Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-412,15,48,12,4,21,0,1 Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-596,10,48,13,5,23,1,0 Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-11,12,32,8,4,21,12,10 Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-14,6,43,9,7,26,7,3 Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-17,11,29,9,2,17,18,13 Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-19,8,12,8,1,15,33,23 Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-21,5,23,11,0,16,26,19 Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-24,6,13,9,0,15,32,26 Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-43,10,42,11,5,24,4,5 Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-49,20,27,5,5,33,7,1 Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-50,6,12,8,0,8,40,25 Hungary_Avar_Late:HH-10,11,50,14,4,19,1,1 Hungary_Avar_Late:HH-22,10,45,10,7,25,1,3 Hungary_Avar_Late:KK1-368,14,51,12,2,20,0,1 Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-441,4,11,13,0,7,43,22 Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-445,5,17,11,3,11,33,20 Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-670,0,4,12,0,3,54,28 Hungary_Avar_Late:OBH-37,17,43,11,2,15,6,5 Hungary_Avar_Late:OBH-52,6,49,12,4,29,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Late:OBT-51,13,30,10,2,18,16,11 Hungary_Avar_Late:OBT-108,18,50,10,1,17,2,1 Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-12,10,43,10,5,20,7,5 Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-200,9,42,10,3,22,8,5 Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-205,5,26,11,2,17,23,16 Hungary_Avar_Late:SZK-130,13,48,11,2,24,0,2 Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-62,13,44,9,6,20,4,4 Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-70,11,44,9,5,26,3,3 Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-89,13,47,9,5,19,4,3 Hungary_Avar_Late:SZM-332,13,50,14,2,15,2,3 Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-67,13,40,12,1,19,8,7 Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-168,10,33,10,2,18,15,12 Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-266,1,5,11,0,8,44,32 Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-277,12,33,10,5,17,10,13 Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-316,10,27,9,3,14,19,18 Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-509,3,44,12,9,31,0,1 Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-798,7,44,9,8,31,1,1 Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-1273,5,45,11,8,29,0,2 Hungary_Avar_Late:TTSZ-43,2,14,10,0,10,40,24 Hungary_Avar_Late:VPB-31,8,46,12,3,23,2,6 Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite:KV-3450,6,16,8,3,12,34,21 Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite:VPB-307,7,22,10,1,14,29,18 Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core1:KK1-251,17,54,12,2,14,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:ALT-414,11,48,13,4,23,0,1 Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:ARK-38,12,48,12,4,22,2,1 Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:SZKT-265,12,51,13,3,20,1,0 Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:SZKT-311,16,48,11,4,20,1,0 Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core4:OBT-3,8,44,10,10,28,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Middle:CSPF-182,2,14,9,0,9,42,23 Hungary_Avar_Middle:KD-16,8,27,9,0,20,20,16 Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-188,13,39,11,1,19,10,7 Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-517,7,48,10,8,27,0,1 Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-520,12,38,11,0,19,9,11 Hungary_Avar_Middle:KPM-23,13,46,12,5,18,2,4 Hungary_Avar_Middle:MS-50,9,45,13,8,25,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-17,9,45,13,6,24,2,1 Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-23,4,20,10,4,16,27,20 Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-74,0,6,10,1,3,56,24 Hungary_Avar_Middle:PV-116,9,43,9,7,22,7,3 Hungary_Avar_Middle:PV-125,11,35,12,5,21,9,6 Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-35,1,8,12,1,6,49,23 Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-144,10,50,12,3,25,0,2 Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-151,7,46,13,6,25,0,2 Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-198,11,54,16,0,19,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-24,5,49,12,7,27,1,0 Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-38,10,52,12,4,21,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-255,15,54,12,0,15,0,3 Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-259,14,49,12,2,18,4,1 Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZRV-147,9,25,9,3,17,21,16 Hungary_Avar_Middle:TMH-756,7,50,13,6,24,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Middle_Elite:KV-3367,5,14,8,0,8,43,23 Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1:ALT-224,11,60,13,0,16,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1:SZK-180,16,54,11,1,18,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core2:HH-102,11,51,10,4,21,2,1 Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core3:TMH-388,5,46,13,7,28,1,1 Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core4:KDA-485,5,48,11,9,28,0,0 Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:ALT-442,8,48,9,6,28,0,1 Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:ARK-41,11,24,11,2,19,21,13 Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:JHT-154,16,45,12,2,21,3,1 Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KK1-245,22,54,13,0,10,1,0 Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KK2-429,4,12,9,1,8,42,26 Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KPM-27,13,43,13,3,19,6,4 Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate_Elite:KV-3456,0,2,11,1,3,57,27 Hungary_Commoner_Conq_Asia_Core2:SZA-154,5,15,8,3,27,33,10 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:KeF1-10936,2,14,10,0,32,38,4 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:LB-1432,2,14,12,1,34,35,3 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:MH1-23,5,12,9,4,31,38,1 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-4,4,13,7,2,34,38,3 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-6,1,14,12,1,32,36,4 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-7,2,11,9,3,32,40,2 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:TCS-2,5,14,8,2,29,36,5 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:K2-29,8,16,6,2,25,35,9 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:K3-6,7,15,11,2,25,33,6 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:SZAK-1,3,15,12,0,29,36,6 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-5,10,50,13,5,20,0,2 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-43,4,43,13,8,29,1,2 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-50,6,35,9,10,31,7,2 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-86,15,52,11,3,18,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-88,10,25,11,2,23,20,9 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-157,4,45,11,7,32,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-229,4,46,11,10,28,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-231,9,24,9,2,24,22,8 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-245,6,45,12,10,26,1,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-154,9,47,8,7,29,0,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-161,9,46,9,10,24,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-176,8,47,9,7,28,0,2 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-1,7,31,11,6,25,16,5 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-2,4,37,11,8,29,8,3 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-19,7,47,12,6,26,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-20,8,45,9,9,29,0,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-23,6,44,8,9,31,0,2 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-28,4,32,9,6,30,16,2 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-38,3,43,12,10,30,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-57,10,46,11,8,24,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-200,6,20,8,4,28,26,8 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-216,8,27,12,3,22,15,13 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-66,7,47,11,10,24,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-81,8,43,10,5,29,0,4 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-98,5,43,9,11,32,0,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-106,2,44,11,9,34,0,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-143,8,31,9,6,25,12,10 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-182,10,46,9,7,26,0,2 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-251,4,44,8,7,32,2,4 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-20,6,49,11,9,25,0,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-29,7,43,8,8,31,3,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-44,11,48,8,8,24,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-52,8,29,8,5,21,19,10 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-394,12,45,11,7,24,1,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-426,8,31,12,5,25,13,6 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-566,15,23,8,4,18,20,12 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:VPB-561,7,41,9,8,28,5,2 Hungary_Conq_Commoner:VPB-588,6,49,11,9,24,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core1:SZOD-376,10,61,14,0,15,0,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3:PLE-195,6,48,11,7,26,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3:SH-175,10,47,9,6,27,0,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core4:SZA-7,7,46,10,9,27,0,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core5:IBE-206,3,42,12,10,31,0,2 Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-49,8,43,11,9,24,3,3 Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-75,0,40,14,10,35,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-87,5,45,12,9,27,0,2 Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-92,4,9,12,0,9,41,26 Hungary_Conq_Elite:BK-2,8,31,9,8,28,14,2 Hungary_Conq_Elite:CSU-11,8,45,8,9,27,2,0 Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-1,10,34,9,5,27,11,3 Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-10,4,38,9,10,28,4,5 Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-3286,8,15,9,0,12,35,21 Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-16,3,26,9,5,25,22,10 Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-18,6,32,9,4,24,15,11 Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-33,13,49,12,4,21,1,0 Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-61,4,14,9,1,21,38,12 Hungary_Conq_Elite:K3-12,17,29,10,3,22,9,11 Hungary_Conq_Elite:K3-13,7,28,5,7,30,17,7 Hungary_Conq_Elite:KH-500,11,21,11,2,23,22,11 Hungary_Conq_Elite:KH-596,8,48,11,8,23,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-4,1,21,9,2,33,30,5 Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-9,3,34,13,5,33,9,2 Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-14,7,26,10,8,27,16,6 Hungary_Conq_Elite:NK-2,8,16,7,3,11,38,17 Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-16,11,28,8,2,20,20,10 Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-23,11,36,8,5,24,8,8 Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-114,11,50,10,5,23,0,0 Hungary_Conq_Elite:SEO-3,6,26,9,4,23,24,9 Hungary_Conq_Elite:SEO-4,13,17,8,2,20,27,14 Hungary_Conq_Elite:SO-5,7,23,9,3,23,26,9 Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-2,9,38,10,8,29,2,4 Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-9,9,17,11,1,18,32,12 Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-10,6,23,10,1,26,25,9 Hungary_Conq_Elite:TCS-5,9,45,11,7,27,0,1 Hungary_Conq_Elite:VPB-167,2,43,10,10,33,0,2 Hungary_Conq_Elite:VPB-310,8,24,10,3,27,23,6 Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core4:TCS-18,11,42,10,10,27,1,0 Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core5:SE-64,5,42,8,10,31,1,1 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-90,7,39,11,6,27,6,4 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-106,6,43,10,8,29,2,2 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-107,7,43,12,10,26,2,0 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-116,9,42,10,9,27,2,1 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-88,6,46,11,7,29,0,0 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-106,4,44,12,10,30,0,0 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-107,4,32,10,4,30,15,4 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-153,6,44,11,8,29,2,0 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-95,3,33,10,6,30,12,7 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-115,10,30,12,4,24,13,8 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-327,9,30,8,4,27,18,5 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-384,7,37,10,7,29,6,5 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-418,10,31,10,5,26,13,5 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-441,6,40,9,9,29,3,4 Hungary_Early_Arpadian:VPB-118,8,50,11,8,23,0,1 Hungary_Early_Arpadian_EU_Core5:VPB-600,5,43,9,11,31,1,1 Hungary_Hun:ASZK-1,10,24,11,4,38,9,5 Hungary_Hun:CSB-3,9,40,13,8,26,1,3 Hungary_Hun:CSB-9,0,33,8,15,43,0,0 Hungary_Hun:KMT-2785,3,24,9,5,24,20,15 Hungary_Hun:MSG-1,0,1,12,0,4,43,40 Hungary_Hun:SEI-5,9,40,11,8,29,2,0 Hungary_Hun:SEI-6,4,46,12,5,31,0,1 Hungary_Hun:SZLA-646,3,40,11,11,36,0,0 Hungary_Hun:VZ-12673,2,2,9,0,10,40,37 Hungary_Starcevo_EN:ANY-4027,2,76,19,1,1,1,0 Hungary_Tisza_LN:HGO-26,2,71,17,8,0,1,0 Hungary_Tisza_LN:VM-33,2,72,17,5,2,2,0

New Hungarian averages

Code:

Hungary_Avar_Early,8.2173913,31.7826087,11.2608696,2.8695652,17.6086957,16.9130435,11.3478261 Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite,2,27,9,7.5,25.5,19.5,9 Hungary_Avar_Early_EU_Core3,7,50,11,7,25,0,0 Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle,12,53,12,3,19.5,0,0.5 Hungary_Avar_Late,9.325,34.95,10.475,3.35,19.25,13.2,9.425 Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite,6.5,19,9,2,13,31.5,19.5 Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core1,17,54,12,2,14,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2,12.75,48.75,12.25,3.75,21.25,1,0.5 Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core4,8,44,10,10,28,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Middle,8.4545455,38.3181818,11.4545455,3.5,19.0909091,11.7727273,7.4090909 Hungary_Avar_Middle_Elite,5,14,8,0,8,43,23 Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1,13.5,57,12,0.5,17,0,0 Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core2,11,51,10,4,21,2,1 Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core3,5,46,13,7,28,1,1 Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core4,5,48,11,9,28,0,0 Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate,12.3333333,37.6666667,11.1666667,2.3333333,17.5,12.1666667,7.5 Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate_Elite,0,2,11,1,3,57,27 Hungary_Commoner_Conq_Asia_Core2,5,15,8,3,27,33,10 Hungary_Conq_Commoner,7.3947368,40.3421053,10.0526316,7.0526316,26.5263158,5.4473684,3.1315789 Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core1,10,61,14,0,15,0,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3,8,47.5,10,6.5,26.5,0,0.5 Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core4,7,46,10,9,27,0,0 Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core5,3,42,12,10,31,0,2 Hungary_Conq_Elite,7.4242424,30.7272727,9.7575758,4.9393939,24.3333333,15.5757576,7.2727273 Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core4,11,42,10,10,27,1,0 Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core5,5,42,8,10,31,1,1 Hungary_Early_Arpadian,6.8,38.9333333,10.4666667,7,27.6666667,6.2666667,3.0666667 Hungary_Early_Arpadian_EU_Core5,5,43,9,11,31,1,1 Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core1,0,0,6,0,1,67,26 Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,0.75,9.75,0,0.75,58.25,30.5 Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core1,0,0,8,0,0,62,29 Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,1,8.6666667,0,2,57.6666667,30.6666667 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1,3,13.1428571,9.5714286,1.8571429,32,37.2857143,3.1428571 Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2,6,15.3333333,9.6666667,1.3333333,26.3333333,34.6666667,7 Hungary_Hun,4.4444444,27.7777778,10.6666667,6.2222222,26.7777778,12.7777778,11.2222222 Hungary_Late_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,3,7,0,1,57,31 Hungary_Middle_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,2,9,0,1,60,28 Hungary_Starcevo_EN,2,76,19,1,1,1,0 Hungary_Tisza_LN,2,71.5,17,6.5,1,1.5,0
01-24-2022, 03:39 PM
vbnetkhio

Quote:

On the other hand, the “immigrant core” of the conquering Hungarians derived from an earlier
admixture of Mansis, early Sarmatians and descendants of late Xiongnus

I don't think this excludes Turkic ancestry at all. Early Turks were something like Sarmatian+Xiongnu too, so this model could be including such ancestry as well.
01-24-2022, 03:42 PM
Blondie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universe

There used to be a slavic speaking population in western Hungary before the hungarian conquest

But not only slavs lived in West Hungary. This is the chronology of the arrival of conquerors according to Anonymus (and the original documents):

1. Álmos and the other leaders have entered the Carpathian Basin in Subcarpathia (Vereczke Pass) across the Havas Forest. Firstly they have conquered the first settlement by force and they gived a new name "Munkács" because the siege was not easy. They stayed here for 40 days.
(obviously Munkács was populated by slavs at this time)

2. Full conquest of southern Subcarpathia which was part of Bulgaria at this time, led by Salán bulgarian warlord, after the siege of Munkács the local slavs accepted the magyar rule.

3. Conquest of East Highland (Felvidék), they moved to Hungvár (now Ungvár) which means (city of hungarus), after the siege they stayed here for 4 days. It was the moment when the conquerors used the hungarus name for this ethnicity, they named them after the city.

4. The great military campaign to East Alföld, siege of Zemplén and Borsova (came from the hungarian borsó word) and defeat of bulgarian warlord Salán. These lands had hungarus majority ruled by bulgarians, in north (present day Borsod country) was populated by slavs and hungarus.

5. At this moment the capital was Ungvár, and they moved across the present day North Hungary, they conquered north West Hungary completely where slavs lived. Their capital was Komárom.

6. Conquest of most parts of Highland to the Tátra. The military chief of the campaign was Bors a hungarus leader.

7. Conquest of Bihar (the gate of Transylvania), Bihar was ruled by Mén-Marót hungarus leader who didn't want magyar rule in his land, so the magyars conquered it by force. It was the second hungarus vs conqueror battle.

8. Building fortresses in Szabolcs country (Szabolcs, Tas Vára), named by Szabolcs hungarus leader and Tas conqueror leader.

9. Conquest of another hungarus fortess Zilah, northern gate of Transylvania.

10. Buildig the "gyepű" a military defense line.

11. Agmánd a hungarus scout was send by Tétény conqueror leader to Transylvania to explore it. The land was populated by vlachs and slavs at this time, and obviously partly hungarus too because they also used hungarus topograpy.

12. Conquest of Transylvania, defeat Gyalú the vlach leader.

13. Conquest of south Partium.

14. According to Anonymus the conquerors firstly conquered the big cities, fortresses, but now they have conquered the complete areas including the full countryside everywhere.

15. A great military campaign to West Highland. Battles between conquerors and local slavs led by Zobor, magyars won.

16. A common greek-bulgarian attack against the conquerors and they have defeated by magyars in Csongrád.

17. Conquest of Southland (present day Vojvodina and Slavonia)

18. Anti-magyar uprising in south Partium led by Galád hungarus leader, his army was mostly bulgarian, vlach, turkic. This army was defeated by magyars.

19. Conquest of Transdanubia, West Hungary, the local slavs, roman survivors were defeated by magyars.

Territory of conquerors, and every changing:

https://i.imgur.com/y2Rmujw.jpg

Ethnic map at this time:

https://i.imgur.com/WGD5coU.jpg
01-24-2022, 03:44 PM
Blondie

Quote:

Originally Posted by rothaer

1. I'd guess there were ethnically different tribes. Arthur Koestler wrote in "The Thirteenth Tribe" that there was even one (or more?) tribe said to be observant to Jewish laws. (It was a long time ago that I read it and unfortunately I don't recall the exact source.) So having some Turkic Khazar tribe among them seems well possible.

2. Can you briefly tell how is determeined that someone used Hungarian topography, names, and words before Árpáds?

3. I appreciate all old sources including Gesta Hungarorum, but there could well be an erroneous statement. The reputation of that text in the aspect of authenticity is not the best.

Check my new comment :)
01-24-2022, 04:04 PM
Coastal Elite

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blondie

Ethnic map at this time:

https://i.imgur.com/WGD5coU.jpg

I like how they went with the default font on Microsoft Paint when they manipulated that map. Looks very official.
01-24-2022, 04:09 PM
vbnetkhio

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blondie

But not only slavs lived in West Hungary. This is the chronology of the arrival of conquerors according to Anonymus (and the original documents):

1. Álmos and the other leaders have entered the Carpathian Basin in Subcarpathia (Vereczke Pass) across the Havas Forest. Firstly they have conquered the first settlement by force and they gived a new name "Munkács" because the siege was not easy. They stayed here for 40 days.
(obviously Munkács was populated by slavs at this time)

2. Full conquest of southern Subcarpathia which was part of Bulgaria at this time, led by Salán bulgarian warlord, after the siege of Munkács the local slavs accepted the magyar rule.

3. Conquest of East Highland (Felvidék), they moved to Hungvár (now Ungvár) which means (city of hungarus), after the siege they stayed here for 4 days. It was the moment when the conquerors used the hungarus name for this ethnicity, they named them after the city.

4. The great military campaign to East Alföld, siege of Zemplén and Borsova (came from the hungarian borsó word) and defeat of bulgarian warlord Salán. These lands had hungarus majority ruled by bulgarians, in north (present day Borsod country) was populated by slavs and hungarus.

5. At this moment the capital was Ungvár, and they moved across the present day North Hungary, they conquered north West Hungary completely where slavs lived. Their capital was Komárom.

6. Conquest of most parts of Highland to the Tátra. The military chief of the campaign was Bors a hungarus leader.

7. Conquest of Bihar (the gate of Transylvania), Bihar was ruled by Mén-Marót hungarus leader who didn't want magyar rule in his land, so the magyars conquered it by force. It was the second hungarus vs conqueror battle.

8. Building fortresses in Szabolcs country (Szabolcs, Tas Vára), named by Szabolcs hungarus leader and Tas conqueror leader.

9. Conquest of another hungarus fortess Zilah, northern gate of Transylvania.

10. Buildig the "gyepű" a military defense line.

11. Agmánd a hungarus scout was send by Tétény conqueror leader to Transylvania to explore it. The land was populated by vlachs and slavs at this time, and obviously partly hungarus too because they also used hungarus topograpy.

12. Conquest of Transylvania, defeat Gyalú the vlach leader.

13. Conquest of south Partium.

14. According to Anonymus the conquerors firstly conquered the big cities, fortresses, but now they have conquered the complete areas including the full countryside everywhere.

15. A great military campaign to West Highland. Battles between conquerors and local slavs led by Zobor, magyars won.

16. A common greek-bulgarian attack against the conquerors and they have defeated by magyars in Csongrád.

17. Conquest of Southland (present day Vojvodina and Slavonia)

18. Anti-magyar uprising in south Partium led by Galád hungarus leader, his army was mostly bulgarian, vlach, turkic. This army was defeated by magyars.

19. Conquest of Transdanubia, West Hungary, the local slavs, roman survivors were defeated by magyars.

Territory of conquerors, and every changing:

https://i.imgur.com/y2Rmujw.jpg

Ethnic map at this time:

https://i.imgur.com/WGD5coU.jpg

very interesting analysis!
the new study shows as that "Hungarus" were a Daco-Roman+Avar+Hun mix...
I don't believe these people called themselves "Hungarus", in these chronicles it was probably used with a meaning of "inhabitant of Pannonia"
01-24-2022, 04:09 PM
Blondie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daco Celtic

I like how they went with the default font on Microsoft Paint when they manipulated that map. Looks very official.

Nobody said that this is official map, i created it and it based on the Gesta Hungarorum.

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page