Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

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Originally Posted by Loki

For the last time.... I2a1 in the Balkans is NOT Slavic in origin... it is Paleolithic.


The highest frequency of I2a1 (I-P37) in the Balkans today was present before the Slavic expansion and is owed to indigenous tribes,[64] and is particularly suggested to have been common among the ancient Thracians in Romania. source


Kushniarevich, A; Utevska, O; Chuhryaeva, M; Agdzhoyan, A; Dibirova, K; Uktveryte, I; Möls, M; Mulahasanovic, L; Pshenichnov, A; Frolova, S; Shanko, A; Metspalu, E; Reidla, M; Tambets, K; Tamm, E; Koshel, S; Zaporozhchenko, V; Atramentova, L; Kučinskas, V; Davydenko, O; Goncharova, O; Evseeva, I; Churnosov, M; Pocheshchova, E; Yunusbayev, B; Khusnutdinova, E; Marjanović, D; Rudan, P; Rootsi, S; et al. (2015). "Genetic Heritage of the Balto-Slavic Speaking Populations: A Synthesis of Autosomal, Mitochondrial and Y-Chromosomal Data".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4558026/

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The I2a1b in the Balkans isn't native balkan in origin this is an established fact proven by recent studies on STR/SNP diversity and ancient DNA. One reason why the I2a1b clade found in South Slavs can't be native in origin is due to diversity, the clades found in South Slavs lack diversity suggesting that the haplogroup didn't have an expansion from the Balkan region as if it did there would be a high diversity of SNPs, studies show that the highest diversity is actually in between Poland and Ukraine which suggests an expansion from there and the studies show that the time of these expansions could be during the early medieval era. Another reason why it can't be native is due to ancient DNA samples, the ancient samples from the Balkans were only I2a2a and I2a1a when it came to I2 meaning that no I2a1b was found but I2a1b has been found across NW Europe in Germany and Scandinavia for example, one of the Motala SHG samples from Sweden was in fact I2a1b-L147.2 which is also known as I2a-Din suggesting that it probably has origin there and later moved into east Europe where it then began to split into various clades including the clades found in east Europe/South Slavs. Another reason to why I2a1b most likely has NW European origin is due to the oldest I2a1b samples being found there and due to the brother clade of I2a-Din being found almost exclusively in NW Europe and with high diversity there iirc. The sources you posted are pretty old and have been disproved by more recent studies

The native Balkan theory which is now obsolete was always flawed as it was only based on geographical frequencies which is wrong as frequencies of haplogroups can easily change with certain breeding biases where a certain Ydna carrier has more sons than the others and thus replacing the rest, this is what happened with Basques as originally they weren't mainly R1b since they aren't IE but due to certain IE people entering the Basque gene pool and producing more sons than the natives allowed them to gain the higher frequency in terms of haplogroups

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

The I2a1b in the Balkans isn't native balkan in origin this is an established fact proven by recent studies on STR/SNP diversity and ancient DNA. One reason why the I2a1b clade found in South Slavs can't be native in origin is due to diversity, the clades found in South Slavs lack diversity suggesting that the haplogroup didn't have an expansion from the Balkan region as if it did there would be a high diversity of SNPs, studies show that the highest diversity is actually in between Poland and Ukraine which suggests an expansion from there and the studies show that the time of these expansions could be during the early medieval era. Another reason why it can't be native is due to ancient DNA samples, the ancient samples from the Balkans were only I2a2a and I2a1a when it came to I2 meaning that no I2a1b was found but I2a1b has been found across NW Europe in Germany and Scandinavia for example, one of the Motala SHG samples from Sweden was in fact I2a1b-L147.2 which is also known as I2a-Din suggesting that it probably has origin there and later moved into east Europe where it then began to split into various clades including the clades found in east Europe/South Slavs. Another reason to why I2a1b most likely has NW European origin is due to the oldest I2a1b samples being found there and due to the brother clade of I2a-Din being found almost exclusively in NW Europe and with high diversity there iirc. The sources you posted are pretty old and have been disproved by more recent studies

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I really have to *facepalm* at this. And no, the above peer-reviewed study is NOT flawed, it is accepted by all who DON'T have an ideological interest that blinds their objective judgement. Even Wikipedia accepts it. You basically think you know better than these scientists who have confirmed this.

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

The native Balkan theory which is now obsolete was always flawed as it was only based on geographical frequencies which is wrong as frequencies of haplogroups can easily change with certain breeding biases where a certain Ydna carrier has more sons than the others and thus replacing the rest, this is what happened with Basques as originally they weren't mainly R1b since they aren't IE but due to certain IE people entering the Basque gene pool and producing more sons than the natives allowed them to gain the higher frequency in terms of haplogroups

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No, it is not "obsolete", and has never been obsolete. The "I2a1-is-Slavic" mantra has been flawed, and erroneous from the start. I told you guys long ago, nobody wanted to believe me. Now I actually show you studies confirming this, and still you don't want to believe. Why not? Because your argument is ideological, not scientific reality.

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Originally Posted by Loki

I really have to *facepalm* at this. And no, the above peer-reviewed study is NOT flawed, it is accepted by all who DON'T have an ideological interest that blinds their objective judgement. Even Wikipedia accepts it. You basically think you know better than these scientists who have confirmed this.

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Ummm no, modern day geneticists don’t agree with the Balkan theory as its outdated and I bet you didnt get what I posted. And no I don’t think I know better im just saying what recent studies are showing. I wouldn’t even mind it if I2a1b was native so no I’m not blinded by ideological interests. Im still waiting for you to say how I2a1b is native. Even Serbs from the Serbian DNA project and Eupedia acknowledge its non-Balkan origin https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#I2a1b

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Originally Posted by Loki

No, it is not "obsolete", and has never been obsolete. The "I2a1-is-Slavic" mantra has been flawed, and erroneous from the start. I told you guys long ago, nobody wanted to believe me. Now I actually show you studies confirming this, and still you don't want to believe. Why not? Because your argument is ideological, not scientific reality.

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I just told you, using evidence from recent studies. Can you give a scientific explanation to how it’s native Balkan? Also please find a study from 2017 which says its native. And if possible take a quote from your study which says it’s native

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

I just told you, using evidence from recent studies. Can you give a scientific explanation to how it’s native Balkan? Also please find a study from 2017 which says its native. And if possible take a quote from your study which says it’s native

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https://static3.fjcdn.com/comments/B...0d8b153a48.png

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...path-prefix=ru

http://megalawlz.com/wp-content/uplo...alawlz-lol.jpg

https://assets.dnainfo.com/photo/201...812/larger.jpg

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Originally Posted by Loki

[IM]https://static3.fjcdn.com/comments/Blank+_49e657e4396a7fbbf098ef0d8b153a48.png[/IMG]

IMG]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/terraria/images/3/3b/Mega_Facepalm.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120128093149&path-prefix=ru[/IMG]

[IMhttp://megalawlz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/funny-epic-facepalm-pictures-pics-megalawlz-lol.jpg[/IMG]

[IG]https://assets.dnainfo.com/photo/2017/8/1502465669-306812/larger.jpg[/IMG]

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Basically another way of saying that you don’t know and that you have no evidence to back up what you claim

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

Basically another way of saying that you don’t know and that you have no evidence to back up what you claim

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No, just that I'm totally tired to keep repeating the truth to you, only for it to be trampled upon and denied. I have time and again backed up what I said with evidence. I have just posted more evidence in a peer-reviewed scientific study, which you have again rejected. And what are YOUR credentials? Believe what you want. It's your ideology.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

The I2a1b in the Balkans isn't native balkan in origin this is an established fact proven by recent studies on STR/SNP diversity and ancient DNA. One reason why the I2a1b clade found in South Slavs can't be native in origin is due to diversity, the clades found in South Slavs lack diversity suggesting that the haplogroup didn't have an expansion from the Balkan region as if it did there would be a high diversity of SNPs, studies show that the highest diversity is actually in between Poland and Ukraine which suggests an expansion from there and the studies show that the time of these expansions could be during the early medieval era. Another reason why it can't be native is due to ancient DNA samples, the ancient samples from the Balkans were only I2a2a and I2a1a when it came to I2 meaning that no I2a1b was found but I2a1b has been found across NW Europe in Germany and Scandinavia for example, one of the Motala SHG samples from Sweden was in fact I2a1b-L147.2 which is also known as I2a-Din suggesting that it probably has origin there and later moved into east Europe where it then began to split into various clades including the clades found in east Europe/South Slavs. Another reason to why I2a1b most likely has NW European origin is due to the oldest I2a1b samples being found there and due to the brother clade of I2a-Din being found almost exclusively in NW Europe and with high diversity there iirc. The sources you posted are pretty old and have been disproved by more recent studies

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You speak of I2a1b in this post. Are there any other I2 clades in balkans? And what are their origin/spread?