Gedmatch calculators on Vahaduo

How about adding also German_Jewish population average ???

These are the same samples that were used in Global25 to make Ashkenazi_Germany population:

(DE_DE are fully from Germany; AT_DE is half Austria half Germany)

Code:

Ashk_DE_DE_1,13.60,4.84,18.39,11.37,39.60,8.46,0,1.03,0,0,1.21,1.51,0 Ashk_DE_DE_10,19.13,4.96,18.59,7.48,40.41,5.07,0,1.63,0.39,0.40,0.65,1.20,0.09 Ashk_DE_DE_11,14.04,4.99,20.93,7.86,40.54,7.73,0,0.89,0.86,0.21,1.00,0.53,0.43 Ashk_DE_DE_2,18.24,6.97,16.23,9.17,39.91,6.66,0.43,0,0.65,0.39,0,0,1.34 Ashk_DE_DE_3,13.00,7.12,19.95,10.65,39.96,6.52,0.41,0.02,0,0,0.43,0.65,1.28 Ashk_DE_DE_4,15.56,5.59,18.75,10.46,40.64,5.65,1.55,0,0,0,0.79,1.01,0 Ashk_DE_DE_5,15.90,7.03,19.87,10.14,36.50,6.28,0,1.40,0.33,0.89,0,1.04,0.62 Ashk_DE_DE_6,15.94,4.42,20.12,11.93,37.59,5.59,0,0.56,0,0.86,0.58,0.60,1.79 Ashk_DE_DE_7,19.85,4.13,19.97,6.60,39.65,6.78,0,0.82,0,0.49,0,1.14,0.56 Ashk_DE_DE_8,13.12,8.62,20.14,9.10,39.80,5.52,0.24,1.35,0,0.60,0.03,0.75,0.73 Ashk_DE_DE_9,14.46,5.18,19.00,13.05,38.04,5.74,1.70,1.11,0.19,0,0.03,1.47,0.04 Ashk_AT_DE_1,17.31,7.17,16.96,9.42,37.24,6.23,0.92,0,1.48,0.84,0.08,0.79,1.55

Here is the average (these are academic samples, but of course Jews from GEDmatch can be added too):

Code:

German_Jewish,15.85,5.92,19.08,9.77,39.16,6.35,0.44,0.73,0.33,0.39,0.40,0.89,0.70

Distance to: German_Jewish

4.25860306 Jew_Italy

5.16441671 Jew_Moldova

6.35037007 Jew_Sephardi

6.37775039 Jew_Ashkenazi

6.40543519 Jew_Algeria

6.89935504 Jew_Morroco

8.56658625 Jew_Tunisia

8.65227716 Italian_Calabria

9.05433046 Maltese

9.57498825 Greek_Symi

Distance to:	German_Jewish
4.25860306	Jew_Italy
5.16441671	Jew_Moldova
6.35037007	Jew_Sephardi
6.37775039	Jew_Ashkenazi
6.40543519	Jew_Algeria
6.89935504	Jew_Morroco
8.56658625	Jew_Tunisia
8.65227716	Italian_Calabria
9.05433046	Maltese
9.57498825	Greek_Symi

Comparison with other Germanics, new German averages bolded:

Code:

Distance to: Swiss_German 1.34260940 French_Alsace 1.98821528 German_North_Baden 2.24530622 German_South 2.54373741 German_South_Hesse 2.80365832 Pennsylvania_Dutch 2.83291369 German_Bavaria_proper 2.98011745 German_Upper_Swabia 3.12822633 German_Rhineland-Palatinate 3.86736344 German_Lower_Franconia 3.91447314 Swiss_French 4.06621446 French_Northeast 4.50973392 German_North_Rhine 4.87435124 German_North_Hesse 5.15387233 Austrian_Upper_Austria 5.70218379 French_Canadian 5.78308741 French_Central 6.26118200 German_Saarland 6.28885522 Belgian 6.50744189 German_West 6.57455702 French_Normandy 6.72927188 Austrian_Lower_Austria 7.02115375 Flemish 7.37181796 German_Central_Hesse 7.49415772 Afrikaner 7.55252938 German_Bavarian_Swabia Distance to: Swedish 1.71449701 Swedish_West-Svealand 2.98025167 Swedish_Götaland 3.42238221 Norwegian_Southcentral 3.52420204 Danish 3.90887452 German_Hamburg 4.09625439 Swedish_East-Svealand 4.32578317 Norwegian 4.63498652 German_Lower_Saxony_north 4.91450913 German_Northwest 5.13918281 German_West_Mecklenburg 5.25629147 Dutch_North 5.54860343 German_North 5.85795186 Icelandic 5.95304124 German_Schleswig-Holstein 6.01345159 German_Hither_Pomerania 6.37629987 Dutch_Central 6.63143273 Dutch 7.11487175 German_Lower_Saxony_south 7.27721100 German_Westphalia 7.86860852 Orcadian 8.42623285 English_North 8.48181584 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd 8.70005172 Scottish_Northeast 8.78790646 Swedish_Norrland 8.80528251 German_Frisian Distance to: Norwegian 1.18978990 Danish 1.28136646 Norwegian_Southcentral 1.51052971 Swedish_Götaland 1.78036513 German_Lower_Saxony_north 2.14639232 Icelandic 3.03537477 Swedish_West-Svealand 3.16588060 Dutch_North 3.62227829 German_Hamburg 4.32578317 Swedish 4.53018763 German_Northwest 4.62561347 German_Schleswig-Holstein 4.66439707 Dutch_Central 5.03289181 German_Westphalia 5.11523216 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd 5.16778483 Orcadian 5.24784718 Dutch 5.30584583 German_North 5.64483835 German_Lower_Saxony_south 5.80262871 Scottish_Northeast 6.12739749 English_North 6.15798668 Scottish_Southwest 6.16091714 Scottish 6.19513519 Irish_Connacht 6.21736278 German_Frisian 6.32497431 Scottish_East Distance to: French_Alsace 1.18059307 German_South 1.34260940 Swiss_German 1.71848771 German_North_Baden 1.96900990 German_South_Hesse 2.28875512 German_Bavaria_proper 2.34061958 German_Upper_Swabia 2.71821633 Pennsylvania_Dutch 2.72675631 German_Rhineland-Palatinate 2.74435785 German_Lower_Franconia 3.61785848 German_North_Rhine 3.66187111 French_Northeast 4.25088226 Austrian_Upper_Austria 4.33775287 German_North_Hesse 4.94686770 Swiss_French 5.37604873 Belgian 5.37951671 German_West 5.81663133 French_Normandy 5.94350906 French_Canadian 5.96342184 German_Saarland 6.00925952 Flemish 6.25047998 German_Central_Hesse 6.30365767 French_Central 6.38553052 Afrikaner 6.82792062 German 6.97479032 Austrian_Lower_Austria Distance to: Flemish 1.07624347 Belgian 1.88202019 Dutch_South 2.40977177 French_Normandy 2.46385876 German_West 3.18223192 Afrikaner 3.31434760 German_North_Rhine 4.16404851 French_Northeast 4.37789904 English_Southeast 4.37971460 French_Brittany 4.74877879 German_North_Hesse 4.77667248 German_Rhineland-Palatinate 5.01471834 German_South_Hesse 5.06919126 English_Midlands 5.16364213 German_South 5.24981904 Austrian_Upper_Austria 5.29650828 English 5.41904051 German_Saarland 5.42524654 German 5.44276584 Pennsylvania_Dutch 5.47387431 German_Lower_Franconia 5.61923482 English_Southwest 5.68328250 German_Upper_Swabia 6.00925952 French_Alsace 6.05881176 German_North_Baden 6.07985197 Dutch Distance to: English_Southeast 0.75398939 English_Midlands 0.97046381 English 1.65317876 English_Southwest 2.02995074 English_North 2.57274173 Welsh 2.61488049 Dutch 3.15821152 German_Lower_Saxony_south 3.23184158 Scottish_East 3.26522587 Dutch_Central 3.34586312 Scottish 3.39869092 Scottish_North-Highlands 3.42324408 Dutch_South 3.44258624 Scottish_Northeast 3.46070802 French_Brittany 3.57310789 German_Westphalia 3.68028532 Orcadian 3.89146502 Scottish_Southwest 3.94723954 Irish_Leinster 4.35881865 German_Northwest 4.37789904 Flemish 4.67453741 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd 4.72492328 Dutch_North 5.01517697 Irish 5.14444360 Belgian 5.42595614 Irish_Connacht Distance to: English_North 1.13476870 English 1.28705089 Welsh 1.33161556 English_Midlands 1.46897924 English_Southwest 1.55900609 Scottish_Northeast 1.61632299 Scottish_East 1.69626059 Scottish 1.82614348 Scottish_North-Highlands 1.82630775 Orcadian 2.02995074 English_Southeast 2.18714426 Scottish_Southwest 2.41002075 Irish_Leinster 2.41464283 Dutch 2.55260651 Dutch_Central 2.94842331 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd 3.21141713 German_Westphalia 3.22474805 German_Lower_Saxony_south 3.34127221 Irish 3.64453015 Dutch_North 3.68205106 Irish_Connacht 3.76011968 Irish_Munster 4.28565048 German_Northwest 4.31383820 Irish_Ulster 4.58019650 French_Brittany 4.66306766 Icelandic Distance to: English_Midlands 0.30805844 English 0.75398939 English_Southeast 1.13512114 English_Southwest 1.33161556 English_North 1.91809802 Welsh 2.50429631 Dutch 2.58280855 Scottish_East 2.70782200 Scottish 2.73420921 Scottish_Northeast 2.75426941 Scottish_North-Highlands 3.02390476 Dutch_Central 3.03117139 Orcadian 3.14171927 German_Lower_Saxony_south 3.24157369 Scottish_Southwest 3.31258207 Irish_Leinster 3.42692282 German_Westphalia 3.64839691 French_Brittany 4.05588461 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd 4.08500918 Dutch_South 4.34057600 German_Northwest 4.36942788 Irish 4.38257915 Dutch_North 4.77607580 Irish_Connacht 4.85906370 Irish_Munster 5.06919126 Flemish Distance to: English 0.30805844 English_Midlands 0.95728784 English_Southwest 0.97046381 English_Southeast 1.13476870 English_North 1.67074834 Welsh 2.34597528 Scottish_East 2.47552015 Scottish 2.49669782 Scottish_North-Highlands 2.51503479 Scottish_Northeast 2.57600466 Dutch 2.85259531 Orcadian 3.01239108 Scottish_Southwest 3.02441730 Dutch_Central 3.06432701 Irish_Leinster 3.25550303 German_Lower_Saxony_south 3.44913033 German_Westphalia 3.68294719 French_Brittany 3.86581169 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd 4.12674206 Irish 4.30455573 Dutch_South 4.37036612 Dutch_North 4.46832183 German_Northwest 4.55280134 Irish_Connacht 4.61852790 Irish_Munster 5.07810004 Irish_Ulster Distance to: Dutch_South 1.88202019 Flemish 2.54752821 Belgian 3.19759284 German_West 3.21881966 Afrikaner 3.22158346 French_Normandy 3.42324408 English_Southeast 4.08500918 English_Midlands 4.09622997 French_Brittany 4.30455573 English 4.67944441 English_Southwest 4.77930957 Dutch 4.82123428 German_North_Rhine 5.07337166 German 5.28485572 German_Lower_Saxony_south 5.30478086 English_North 5.47562782 French_Northeast 5.61436550 German_Northwest 5.64364244 Dutch_Central 5.76778987 Welsh 5.81265000 German_North_Hesse 5.92696381 German_Westphalia 5.96518231 Austrian_Upper_Austria 6.08885868 German_Rhineland-Palatinate 6.14138421 German_South_Hesse 6.28976152 German_Central_Hesse Distance to: Dutch_North 1.67098773 Dutch_Central 2.34987234 Dutch 2.57165316 Icelandic 2.59079138 German_Northwest 2.71289513 Danish 2.90418663 German_Lower_Saxony_north 3.04318912 German_Westphalia 3.11967947 German_Lower_Saxony_south 3.14919037 Orcadian 3.16588060 Norwegian 3.20023437 Norwegian_Southcentral 3.36257342 Swedish_Götaland 3.64453015 English_North 3.87524193 German_Hamburg 3.95770135 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd 3.96150224 Scottish_Northeast 4.19748734 Scottish 4.20085706 German_North 4.33973501 Scottish_East 4.37036612 English 4.38257915 English_Midlands 4.38351457 Scottish_Southwest 4.63864204 Scottish_North-Highlands 4.67588494 Welsh 4.72492328 English_Southeast Distance to: Dutch_Central 0.91471307 Dutch 1.67098773 Dutch_North 2.37373124 German_Lower_Saxony_south 2.48145119 German_Northwest 2.55260651 English_North 2.56195238 German_Westphalia 2.78714908 Orcadian 3.02390476 English_Midlands 3.02441730 English 3.26522587 English_Southeast 3.37572214 Scottish_Northeast 3.50563832 Scottish 3.60667437 Scottish_East 3.65775888 Icelandic 3.70098636 Welsh 3.75098654 English_Southwest 3.86608329 Scottish_Southwest 3.86859147 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd 3.88419876 Scottish_North-Highlands 4.21293247 Danish 4.26506741 German_North 4.26695442 German_Lower_Saxony_north 4.35449193 Irish_Leinster 4.66439707 Norwegian 4.75729965 Norwegian_Southcentral Distance to: Dutch 0.91471307 Dutch_Central 2.11681364 German_Lower_Saxony_south 2.23774440 German_Northwest 2.34987234 Dutch_North 2.41464283 English_North 2.50429631 English_Midlands 2.51934515 German_Westphalia 2.57600466 English 2.61488049 English_Southeast 3.06540373 Orcadian 3.38662073 English_Southwest 3.51943177 Scottish_Northeast 3.57326182 Welsh 3.65412096 Scottish 3.70045943 Scottish_East 3.96662325 Scottish_North-Highlands 4.09622997 Scottish_Southwest 4.09662056 German_North 4.21858981 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd 4.28631543 Icelandic 4.48915360 Irish_Leinster 4.74483930 Danish 4.77930957 Dutch_South 4.79069932 German_Lower_Saxony_north 5.24608425 Irish Distance to: Danish 0.85667964 Norwegian_Southcentral 0.86907997 Swedish_Götaland 1.18978990 Norwegian 1.62631485 German_Lower_Saxony_north 2.49040157 Swedish_West-Svealand 2.55984375 Icelandic 2.71289513 Dutch_North 3.05317867 German_Hamburg 3.52420204 Swedish 3.80320917 German_Northwest 4.21293247 Dutch_Central 4.48170726 German_Schleswig-Holstein 4.74483930 Dutch 4.81528815 German_North 4.89710118 German_Westphalia 5.05278141 Orcadian 5.17178886 German_Lower_Saxony_south 5.30605315 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd 5.76675819 Scottish_Northeast 5.87675080 English_North 6.15682548 Scottish 6.21118346 Scottish_Southwest 6.25130386 German_Frisian 6.31099834 Scottish_East 6.42203239 Irish_Connacht Distance to: Belgian 1.07624347 Flemish 1.93450252 French_Normandy 2.54752821 Dutch_South 2.78652113 German_West 2.90681957 German_North_Rhine 3.26309669 French_Northeast 3.31383464 Afrikaner 4.03288978 German_North_Hesse 4.05794283 German_Rhineland-Palatinate 4.26264003 German_South_Hesse 4.58201921 German_South 4.58464830 Pennsylvania_Dutch 4.79937496 French_Brittany 4.91215839 German_Saarland 5.14444360 English_Southeast 5.14882511 German_Upper_Swabia 5.19579638 Austrian_Upper_Austria 5.26079842 German_Lower_Franconia 5.37604873 French_Alsace 5.42436171 German_North_Baden 5.84906830 English_Midlands 5.88404623 German 6.05675656 English 6.10022950 French_Canadian 6.28885522 Swiss_German Distance to: Afrikaner 3.18223192 Flemish 3.21881966 Dutch_South 3.31383464 Belgian 3.45021738 German_West 4.35524971 French_Normandy 4.54441415 German_North_Rhine 5.16183107 French_Northeast 5.29581911 German 5.31654963 German_North_Hesse 5.61385785 English_Southeast 5.63882967 German_South_Hesse 5.75025217 German_South 5.76096346 German_Lower_Franconia 5.77028595 German_Rhineland-Palatinate 6.15661433 German_Upper_Swabia 6.24125789 English_Midlands 6.24676716 French_Brittany 6.24759954 Pennsylvania_Dutch 6.25072796 Austrian_Upper_Austria 6.38553052 French_Alsace 6.47640332 English 6.49576016 German_Lower_Saxony_south 6.50526710 German_Central_Hesse 6.57219902 Dutch 6.63590235 German_North_Baden Distance to: CreodaMum(Staffordshire) 2.62998099 German_Westphalia 2.66037591 German_Lower_Saxony_south 2.83118350 English_Midlands 2.91192376 English 2.94343337 English_North 3.03432035 English_Southeast 3.12904139 Welsh 3.22023291 Dutch 3.22962846 Scottish_East 3.24232941 Scottish 3.27583577 Scottish_Northeast 3.47466545 English_Southwest 3.49625514 Scottish_North-Highlands 3.60002778 Dutch_Central 3.60066660 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd 3.62339620 Scottish_Southwest 3.77544699 Irish_Leinster 3.80197317 German_Northwest 3.86297813 Orcadian 4.33601199 Dutch_North 4.48811765 German_North 4.49560897 Irish 4.59661832 Irish_Connacht 4.80980249 Icelandic 4.97711764 Irish_Munster

Quick PCA of West Germans with other Western European averages:

https://i.postimg.cc/dJm5xCWN/Vahaduo-Custom-PCA-8.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaspias

What is the purpose of such political correctness? Your labels on Balkan Turks are wrong. Thrace samples are from all over Thrace, Deliorman samples are from the historical Deliorman region which covers NE Bulgaria and a bit of Romanian Dobruja whilst Ludogorie is only a small part of NE BG, Macedonia samples are from the whole Macedonia, not only from North Macedonia. Turks of Iraq are ethnically called Turkmen, not Turkish.

Please correct these accordingly in Eurogenes K13. They will replace Turkish_Iraq, Turkish_Eastern_Thrace, Turkish_Ludogorie and Turkish_North_Macedonia.

Code:

Turkish_Thrace,15.59,18.68,14.59,17.12,21.06,2.92,1.42,2.18,5.21,0.48,0.35,0.19,0.20 Turkish_Macedonia,19.58,18.64,16.77,13.73,23.61,2.80,0.68,1.01,2.18,0.21,0.36,0.21,0.24 Turkish_Deliorman,18.24,21.24,14.61,15.55,19.50,2.61,1.05,2.57,3.74,0.41,0.51,0.17,0.15 Turkmen_Iraq,4.43,2.1,8.05,35.26,31.26,7.43,5.96,2.1,0.91,0.63,0.22,0.67,0.98

Corrected

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunai

I consulted with the wiki articles when I made those changes, I didn't know that they all refer to historical regions of Thrace, Macedonia and Deliorman, but I believed they refer to the modern territories, which are known differently in the English language: there is the Macedonia region in Greece and separate North Macedonia country, Thrace is split in 3 regions between Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria, Deliorman is an aka to Ludogorie when you write it in on wiki. Regarding Turkmen in Iraq I wanted to make the distinction from Central Asian Turkmen, since the Iraqi ones are very close to Anatolian Turkish and not at all to Central Asian Turkmen. Maybe Iraqi_Turkmen would be the better name to them so they wouldn't be lumped with Central Asian Turkmen. With the other three modifications I believe you are correct.

Also if you make these 4 corrections Lukasz, can you also correct this?
From

Code:

Russian_Arkhangelsk-Vologda,26.52,49.43,5.57,4.65,1.14,0.51,0.99,0.44,8.60,1.19,0.47,0.17,0.34

To

Code:

Russian_North,26.52,49.43,5.57,4.65,1.14,0.51,0.99,0.44,8.60,1.19,0.47,0.17,0.34

ok

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

German averages for K13, done by rothaer and me. Lucas, please delete the following:

Code:

German_East,37.14,34.35,13.58,5.86,5.61,0.87,1.08,0.06,0.25,0.58,0.30,0.14,0.17 German_North,47.17,27.37,10.33,7.12,4.24,0.91,1.46,0.04,0.12,0.43,0.28,0.37,0.17 German_Northwest,48.15,27.06,11.62,5.35,3.94,0.84,1.28,0.13,0.43,0.44,0.40,0.15,0.14 German_South,41.78,22.89,16.36,6.24,9.41,1.09,0.52,0.25,0.31,0.42,0.38,0.18,0.11 German_West,44.26,23.82,14.00,6.94,7.16,0.86,0.62,0.36,0.40,0.49,0.38,0.41,0.18

General German and Austrian averages stay, don't touch them please.

add these:

Code:

German_Saxony,37.14,34.35,13.58,5.86,5.61,0.87,1.08,0.06,0.25,0.58,0.30,0.14,0.17 German_Upper_Swabia,41.54,22.90,15.28,6.77,10.64,0.68,0.72,0.27,0.41,0.34,0.39,0.00,0.05 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12 German_West_Mecklenburg,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00 German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1.78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6 German_Central_Hesse,41.92,26.21,14.96,8.9,5.73,0.87,0,0.9,0,0,0.45,0.05,0 German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.50,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27 German_Lower_Franconia,41.02,24.79,15.76,6.57,8.84,0.72,0.67,0.15,0.00,0.82,0.04,0.53,0.08 German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0.38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony,39.15,31.43,12.59,6.21,7.42,1.47,0.00,0.03,0.15,0.02,0.00,1.12,0.39 German_Saarland,43.97,19.91,19.32,7.13,6.82,0.88,1.54,0.00,0.00,0.19,0.00,0.26,0.00 German_Bavaria_proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00 German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46 German_North_Rhine,43.32,22.19,15.70,7.63,8.21,0.71,0.91,0.15,0.26,0.14,0.38,0.26,0.15 German_North_Baden,41.05,22.09,17.19,6.37,10.17,0.35,0.68,0.38,0.58,0.17,0.53,0.28,0.16 German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3.88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34 German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57,3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68 German_Hither_Pomerania,44.4,31.31,9.62,7.56,4.12,0.7,0.43,0.31,0.88,0.2,0,0.48,0 German_Farther_Pomerania,39.85,37.28,9.79,5.50,2.77,1.10,1.82,0.00,0.07,0.45,0.35,1.02,0.04 Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67,0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06 German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0.3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0 Austrian_Upper_Austria,41.93,23.93,16.96,8.73,6.52,1.43,0,0.22,0,0,0.16,0.1,0 German_Lower_Saxony_north,50.86,28.10,10.10,5.94,2.03,0.00,1.50,0.78,0.00,0.18,0.48,0.03,0.00 German_Lower_Saxony_south,48.89,25.02,11.37,6.26,4.56,0.58,1.97,0.00,0.24,0.31,0.05,0.16,0.58 German_Westphalia,49.31,25.15,11.25,7.18,3.97,0.69,0.72,0.18,0.07,0.79,0.10,0.10,0.50 German_West_Prussia,35.60,39.30,11.20,6.60,4.18,0.25,0.89,0.00,0.68,0.34,0.47,0.00,0.48 German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.42,21.25,16.46,7.21,8.90,1.51,0.02,0.20,1.11,0.20,0.23,0.33,0.16 Austrian_Lower_Austria,35.32,24.04,19.78,9.1,9.12,0.4,1.02,0,0,0.32,0.89,0,0 German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.32,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0 German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.22,0,0.33,0,1,0,0 German_Schleswig-Holstein,49.59,28.21,13.33,5.42,0,1.79,0,1.19,0,0,0,0,0.47 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14.49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3 Austrian_Carinthia,34.35,34.42,13.15,3.82,10.84,1.04,1.43,0,0.39,0,0.11,0.1,0

German_Saxony is German_East renamed (academic), others are new.

Happy New Year!!

I come back to the forum and I find the most exhaustive German-speaking samples to date, awesome work for both you and Rothaer! I know Germany is very large country with plenty diversity because how divided it was throughout history, so yes, I agree that many regional averages are needed even if I tend to prefer more broader generalizations. However you guys worked a lot on these and very glad we finally have representative averages. Maybe in the future you guys can also expand it with some Swiss German cantons, South Tyrol, Danube Swabians, Volga Germans and Transylvania Saxons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunai

I come back to the forum and I find the most exhaustive German-speaking samples to date, awesome work for both you and Rothaer! I know Germany is very large country with plenty diversity because how divided it was throughout history, so yes, I agree that many regional averages are needed even if I tend to prefer more broader generalizations. However you guys worked a lot on these and very glad we finally have representative averages. Maybe in the future you guys can also expand it with some Swiss German cantons, South Tyrol, Danube Swabians, Volga Germans and Transylvania Saxons.

Thanks you.

It's intented to expand this also to regions like South Tyrol and Switzerland, it just lacked kits fulfilling the requirements right now. As for "German diaspora" like Transdanubia, Transsylvania Saxons, German settlers in Poland and Mennonites from Russia we have kits and data, but in the moment decided to not add them for principal reasons, because they are secondary pops and it would seem wrong to use them for modelling. You also would not use something like Chicago Germans for modelling, because they can not really be an ultimate source for anything.

But as for distances it would nevertheless interesting, I admit. Maybe Stearsolina later releases them separately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rothaer

Thanks you.

It's intented to expand this also to regions like South Tyrol and Switzerland, it just lacked kits fulfilling the requirements right now. As for "German diaspora" like Transdanubia, Transsylvania Saxons, German settlers in Poland and Mennonites from Russia we have kits and data, but in the moment decided to not add them for principal reasons, because they are secondary pops and it would seem wrong to use them for modelling. You also would not use something like Chicago Germans for modelling, because they can not really be an ultimate source for anything.

But as for distances it would nevertheless interesting, I admit. Maybe Stearsolina later releases them separately.

I would still encourage you to release these historical diaspora Germans since they aren't recent migrants to those territories, like the ones in the US, but live there for hundreds of years, developing their own specific cultures from mainland Germany. But no rush, since these things take time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunai

I would still encourage you to release these historical diaspora Germans since they aren't recent migrants to those territories, like the ones in the US, but live there for hundreds of years, developing their own specific cultures from mainland Germany. But no rush, since these things take time.

Hey, I understand your wish to see these averages, but I can explain you further why we decided not to use them. It's not even about how recent communities they are (and some are not recent at all indeed), it's about the fact they are not from singular region in Germany, but regionally mixed. Thus such averages could skew modeling for actual ethnic Germans because they could be misleading, and our aim are pure regional samples.

I mean, for both me and rothaer these averages would be welcome (I have some Danube Swabian ancestry, he has ancestry from German settlers in central Poland), and we do have kits, but really, we strongly decided against adding them to Vahaduo for reasons stated above - they will skew the modeling for other Germans.

If you wish I can send you some samples via PM or you can see German gedmatch results thread, some are posted there.

Btw: Vahaduo updated K13 sheet has existing Swiss_German average (and it looks fine). But in general usable data from Switzerland and Austria is extremely scarce and hard to get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Hey, I understand your wish to see these averages, but I can explain you further why we decided not to use them. It's not even about how recent communities they are (and some are not recent at all indeed), it's about the fact they are not from singular regions in Germany, but regionally mixed. Thus such averages could skew modeling for actual ethnic Germans because they could be misleading, and our aim are pure regional samples.

I mean, for both me and rothaer these averages would be welcome (I have some Danube Swabian ancestry, he has ancestry from German settlers in central Poland), and we do have kits, but really, we strongly decided against adding them to Vahadu for reasons stated above - they will skew the modeling for other Germans.

If you wish I can send you some samples via PM or you can see German gedmatch results thread, some are posted there.

Btw: Vahaduo has existing Swiss_German average. But in general data from Switzerland and Austria is extremely scarce and hard to get.

I can understand your reasoning even if personally I don't believe it is problematic that Danube Swabians and Transylvania Saxons are a mixture of several German regions. That's who they are, a mixture, but it doesn't mean they don't have their own identities, that they don't exist. Nowadays they are very few, since most either assimilated into Hungarians or Romanians or migrated to Germany, but before WWI they used to be well over a million in Historic Hungary. These groups would be very useful for people living in East-Central Europe, since they have direct ancestry from them and not from Germans from Germany proper. For example there are Pennsylvania Dutch and Afrikaner averages, who are also a mixture of several German and Dutch regions. I only believe it wouldn't hurt the algorithm to have them :)

My new ethnic estimates using the latest updates from Creoda and Stearsolina are even more diverse then before, the distance dropped with 0.25 even at ADC 0.25X. I seem to be modeled as an East German/Hungarian with some Central Asian added. Also at ADC 0.5X I get a solid distance.

Target: Dunai
Distance: 0.5249% / 0.52488302 | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.2 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
23.6 Austrian
23.5 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
13.5 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
2.9 Bashkir
1.2 Kazakh
0.6 Evenk
0.5 Melanesian_Papuan

Target: Dunai
Distance: 1.4784% / 1.47835912 | ADC: 0.5x RC
66.2 Austrian
28.7 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
3.4 Altai
1.7 Bashkir

I also have lots of new regions under 10 distance, with a brand new closest region, the Germans from Westcentral Poland.

Distance to: Dunai
4.31448722 German_County_Glatz
4.48241007 Austrian
4.62222890 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
5.37693221 Hungarian
5.62245498 German_North_Bohemia
6.12456529 Slovenian
6.25011200 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
6.46833827 Austrian_Carinthia
6.52157190 Hungarian_Alföld
6.84295258 Croat_North
6.92678858 German_Saxony
7.09174168 Hungarian_North
7.71532242 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
7.73996770 Csángó-Ceangău
7.93761929 Czech
8.11075829 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
8.20033536 Croat_West
8.30510084 Croat
8.36143528 German_Bavarian_Swabia
8.42333070 Slovak
9.19410137 German_Bavaria_proper
9.47310931 German_Lower_Franconia
9.79133290 Croat_East
9.86811025 Austrian_Lower_Austria
9.89321990 German_Central_Hesse
9.91696526 German

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunai

I can understand your reasoning even if personally I don't believe it is problematic that Danube Swabians and Transylvania Saxons are a mixture of several German regions. That's who they are, a mixture, but it doesn't mean they don't have their own identities, that they don't exist. Nowadays they are very few, since most either assimilated into Hungarians or Romanians or migrated to Germany, but before WWI they used to be well over a million in Historic Hungary. These groups would be very useful for people living in East-Central Europe, since they have direct ancestry from them and not from Germans from Germany proper. For example there are Pennsylvania Dutch and Afrikaner averages, who are also a mixture of several German and Dutch regions. I only believe it wouldn't hurt the algorithm to have them :)

IMO Pennsylvania Dutch and Afrikaner should be moved to other spreadsheet with new world averages (it does exist, I think Creoda made it).

here: https://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k13-vahaduo_new-world.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

German averages for K13, done by rothaer and me. Lucas, please delete the following:

Code:

German_East,37.14,34.35,13.58,5.86,5.61,0.87,1.08,0.06,0.25,0.58,0.30,0.14,0.17 German_North,47.17,27.37,10.33,7.12,4.24,0.91,1.46,0.04,0.12,0.43,0.28,0.37,0.17 German_Northwest,48.15,27.06,11.62,5.35,3.94,0.84,1.28,0.13,0.43,0.44,0.40,0.15,0.14 German_South,41.78,22.89,16.36,6.24,9.41,1.09,0.52,0.25,0.31,0.42,0.38,0.18,0.11 German_West,44.26,23.82,14.00,6.94,7.16,0.86,0.62,0.36,0.40,0.49,0.38,0.41,0.18

General German and Austrian averages stay, don't touch them please.

add these:

Code:

German_Saxony,37.14,34.35,13.58,5.86,5.61,0.87,1.08,0.06,0.25,0.58,0.30,0.14,0.17 German_Upper_Swabia,41.54,22.90,15.28,6.77,10.64,0.68,0.72,0.27,0.41,0.34,0.39,0.00,0.05 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12 German_West_Mecklenburg,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00 German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1.78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6 German_Central_Hesse,41.92,26.21,14.96,8.9,5.73,0.87,0,0.9,0,0,0.45,0.05,0 German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.50,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27 German_Lower_Franconia,41.02,24.79,15.76,6.57,8.84,0.72,0.67,0.15,0.00,0.82,0.04,0.53,0.08 German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0.38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony,39.15,31.43,12.59,6.21,7.42,1.47,0.00,0.03,0.15,0.02,0.00,1.12,0.39 German_Saarland,43.97,19.91,19.32,7.13,6.82,0.88,1.54,0.00,0.00,0.19,0.00,0.26,0.00 German_Bavaria_proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00 German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46 German_North_Rhine,43.32,22.19,15.70,7.63,8.21,0.71,0.91,0.15,0.26,0.14,0.38,0.26,0.15 German_North_Baden,41.05,22.09,17.19,6.37,10.17,0.35,0.68,0.38,0.58,0.17,0.53,0.28,0.16 German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3.88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34 German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57,3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68 German_Hither_Pomerania,44.4,31.31,9.62,7.56,4.12,0.7,0.43,0.31,0.88,0.2,0,0.48,0 German_Farther_Pomerania,39.85,37.28,9.79,5.50,2.77,1.10,1.82,0.00,0.07,0.45,0.35,1.02,0.04 Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67,0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06 German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0.3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0 Austrian_Upper_Austria,41.93,23.93,16.96,8.73,6.52,1.43,0,0.22,0,0,0.16,0.1,0 German_Lower_Saxony_north,50.86,28.10,10.10,5.94,2.03,0.00,1.50,0.78,0.00,0.18,0.48,0.03,0.00 German_Lower_Saxony_south,48.89,25.02,11.37,6.26,4.56,0.58,1.97,0.00,0.24,0.31,0.05,0.16,0.58 German_Westphalia,49.31,25.15,11.25,7.18,3.97,0.69,0.72,0.18,0.07,0.79,0.10,0.10,0.50 German_West_Prussia,35.60,39.30,11.20,6.60,4.18,0.25,0.89,0.00,0.68,0.34,0.47,0.00,0.48 German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.42,21.25,16.46,7.21,8.90,1.51,0.02,0.20,1.11,0.20,0.23,0.33,0.16 Austrian_Lower_Austria,35.32,24.04,19.78,9.1,9.12,0.4,1.02,0,0,0.32,0.89,0,0 German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.32,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0 German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.22,0,0.33,0,1,0,0 German_Schleswig-Holstein,49.59,28.21,13.33,5.42,0,1.79,0,1.19,0,0,0,0,0.47 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14.49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3 Austrian_Carinthia,34.35,34.42,13.15,3.82,10.84,1.04,1.43,0,0.39,0,0.11,0.1,0

German_Saxony is German_East renamed (academic), others are new.

Happy New Year!!

Ok thanks! Happy New year too.

I'll kick the tires on the new update.

Distance to: PLogan(superkit)
2.67645288 English_Southwest
2.95981418 English_Midlands
2.97877492 French_Northwest
3.03009901 English
3.20568245 Welsh
3.29265850 English_Southeast
3.53179841 English_North
3.73229152 Scottish_East
3.77490397 Scottish_North-Highlands
4.12439086 Irish_Leinster
4.13905786 Scottish_Northeast
4.19500894 Scottish_Southwest
4.22651156 Scottish
4.61240718 Orcadian
4.99156288 Irish
5.19162788 Irish_Munster
5.27415396 Dutch
5.52101440 Irish_Ulster
5.54677384 Irish_Connacht
5.58097662 German_Lower_Saxony_south
5.58214117 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd
5.66622449 Dutch_Central
5.67110219 Dutch_South
6.00054164 German_Westphalia
6.09030377 Flemish

Target: PLogan(superkit)
Distance: 1.2192% / 1.21916565 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.4 Irish_Munster
19.7 German_Frisian
18.2 English_Midlands
17.7 Spanish_Valencia

Target: Pat(superkit)
Distance: 1.0781% / 1.07813008
36.3 German_Frisian
22.3 Irish_Munster
18.1 German_Lower_Saxony_north
12.3 Spanish_Valencia
8.3 Basque_France
2.7 Turkish_East-Black_Sea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

Updated averages for 2022, plus 3 new French averages, Brittany and Normandy to replace French Northwest, as they shouldn't be lumped together, and French Canadian, because why not.

K13

Code:

Afrikaner,44.12,22.79,14.04,4.98,6.17,0.86,2.28,0.89,0.39,0.52,0.57,0.46,1.89 Belgian,45.20,22.22,15.56,5.69,7.34,1.11,0.97,0.27,0.10,0.54,0.43,0.35,0.15 Dutch,49.05,25.20,12.14,4.99,4.00,1.13,0.94,0.39,0.51,0.60,0.42,0.26,0.29 Dutch_Central,49.66,25.31,11.58,4.87,3.73,1.33,0.93,0.45,0.47,0.65,0.47,0.23,0.27 Dutch_South,46.00,23.57,15.04,5.19,5.54,1.29,0.99,0.39,0.52,0.51,0.28,0.33,0.29 English,49.68,23.44,13.70,5.62,3.96,0.71,1.03,0.15,0.29,0.57,0.39,0.21,0.17 English_Midlands,49.48,23.54,13.73,5.60,4.10,0.62,1.10,0.19,0.23,0.51,0.41,0.24,0.20 English_North,50.43,23.89,13.25,5.51,3.41,0.67,1.00,0.11,0.29,0.60,0.40,0.19,0.18 English_Southeast,48.90,23.41,13.77,5.63,4.52,0.77,1.11,0.18,0.30,0.57,0.42,0.23,0.13 English_Southwest,50.08,22.98,14.31,5.42,3.64,0.62,1.08,0.14,0.22,0.66,0.46,0.17,0.16 Flemish,45.58,22.81,15.33,5.88,6.79,0.60,0.97,0.37,0.12,0.57,0.38,0.35,0.17 French_Brittany,48.91,21.55,16.52,5.11,4.78,0.33,0.87,0.09,0.18,1.01,0.07,0.39,0.16 French_Canadian,43.29,18.80,19.62,4.48,9.04,1.50,0.44,0.34,0.49,1.19,0.33,0.26,0.15 French_Normandy,45.52,21.70,16.97,5.02,7.11,1.04,0.63,0.22,0.85,0.40,0.17,0.05,0.28 German_South,41.48,23.03,16.39,6.26,9.61,1.08,0.47,0.22,0.28,0.44,0.40,0.16,0.12 Irish,52.43,22.93,12.62,6.82,1.44,0.50,1.40,0.16,0.28,0.80,0.29,0.14,0.13 Irish_Connacht,52.60,23.36,12.14,6.89,1.22,0.34,1.65,0.08,0.25,0.85,0.21,0.18,0.13 Irish_Leinster,51.61,22.91,13.16,6.64,1.97,0.67,1.13,0.26,0.13,0.77,0.37,0.17,0.14 Irish_Munster,53.00,23.03,12.32,6.73,1.37,0.36,1.35,0.16,0.24,0.80,0.29,0.14,0.15 Irish_Ulster,53.12,22.51,12.51,6.99,0.89,0.57,1.54,0.10,0.48,0.72,0.28,0.08,0.14 Scottish,51.37,23.36,12.70,6.44,2.73,0.57,1.18,0.16,0.32,0.63,0.27,0.14,0.05

Kits

Code:

Afrikaner - 30 Belgian - 24 Dutch - 128 Dutch_Central - 66 Dutch_South - 26 English - 445 English_Midlands - 66 English_North - 107 English_Southeast - 82 English_Southwest - 38 Flemish - 14 French_Brittany - 10 French_Canadian - 32 French_Normandy - 8 German_South - 20 Irish_Connacht - 33 Irish_Leinster - 33 Irish_Munster - 65 Irish_Ulster - 27 Scottish - 47

K15

Code:

Afrikaner,31.52,25.57,11.04,7.98,10.15,3.79,3.19,0.70,2.04,0.69,0.21,0.36,0.41,0.49,1.79 Belgian,32.74,25.87,10.27,7.96,11.70,4.23,4.35,0.92,0.78,0.08,0.03,0.31,0.21,0.37,0.11 Dutch,37.11,25.92,10.86,9.16,8.52,3.21,1.91,0.80,0.67,0.25,0.28,0.44,0.31,0.21,0.26 Dutch_Central,37.25,26.54,10.93,9.17,7.73,3.14,1.77,0.92,0.65,0.30,0.25,0.49,0.35,0.20,0.23 Dutch_South,33.70,25.72,10.46,8.51,11.25,3.66,3.23,1.09,0.68,0.26,0.32,0.38,0.20,0.26,0.22 English,36.01,28.18,10.15,8.76,9.51,3.69,1.38,0.49,0.73,0.06,0.10,0.32,0.24,0.16,0.11 English_Midlands,36.12,27.75,10.07,8.86,9.57,3.79,1.45,0.49,0.71,0.05,0.08,0.28,0.23,0.20,0.13 English_North,36.51,28.48,10.29,8.89,9.09,3.58,1.00,0.42,0.64,0.04,0.10,0.33,0.24,0.17,0.11 English_Southeast,35.29,27.87,10.31,8.60,9.69,3.98,1.82,0.54,0.77,0.08,0.12,0.34,0.25,0.16,0.09 English_Southwest,36.09,28.52,9.72,8.69,10.25,3.20,1.19,0.45,0.80,0.06,0.06,0.38,0.27,0.12,0.11

Code:

Afrikaner - 30 Belgian - 20 Dutch - 127 Dutch_Central - 67 Dutch_South - 26 English - 313 English_Midlands - 66 English_North - 107 English_Southeast - 85 English_Southwest - 38

Please remove the Cornish average for K15 updated too.

updated

So no one has sided with me.

I get interesting modeling with full spreadsheet run

Target: Stearsolina
Distance: 1.2508% / 1.25083578 | ADC: 0.25x RC

51.1 Lemko_Poland
23.3 German_Bavarian_Swabia
19.4 German_County_Glatz
5.5 Ossetian_North
0.7 Lak

double

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunai

My new ethnic estimates using the latest updates from Creoda and Stearsolina are even more diverse then before, the distance dropped with 0.25 even at ADC 0.25X. I seem to be modeled as an East German/Hungarian with some Central Asian added. Also at ADC 0.5X I get a solid distance.

Target: Dunai
Distance: 0.5249% / 0.52488302 | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.2 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
23.6 Austrian
23.5 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
13.5 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
2.9 Bashkir
1.2 Kazakh
0.6 Evenk
0.5 Melanesian_Papuan

Target: Dunai
Distance: 1.4784% / 1.47835912 | ADC: 0.5x RC
66.2 Austrian
28.7 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
3.4 Altai
1.7 Bashkir

I also have lots of new regions under 10 distance, with a brand new closest region, the Germans from Westcentral Poland.

Distance to: Dunai
4.31448722 German_County_Glatz
4.48241007 Austrian
4.62222890 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
5.37693221 Hungarian
5.62245498 German_North_Bohemia
6.12456529 Slovenian
6.25011200 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
6.46833827 Austrian_Carinthia
6.52157190 Hungarian_Alföld
6.84295258 Croat_North
6.92678858 German_Saxony
7.09174168 Hungarian_North
7.71532242 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
7.73996770 Csángó-Ceangău
7.93761929 Czech
8.11075829 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
8.20033536 Croat_West
8.30510084 Croat
8.36143528 German_Bavarian_Swabia
8.42333070 Slovak
9.19410137 German_Bavaria_proper
9.47310931 German_Lower_Franconia
9.79133290 Croat_East
9.86811025 Austrian_Lower_Austria
9.89321990 German_Central_Hesse
9.91696526 German

The County Glatz is interesting. It most of the time belonged to Bohemia, when the Prussians besides the biggest part od Silesia took it too in 1741. Since then it's viewed as a part of Silesia. But nevertheless the inhabitants of the County Glatz had an own, somewhat seperate from the Silesian mainstream, identity. The county is surrounded 3/4 by mountain ridges and has just one opening towards the rest of Silesia.

I now noted that it has an elevated genetic similarity with pops towards the Balkans. Did here some Vlach-like people come along the Carpathians, Beskids and Sudets? Vlachs in Moravia are in the records of history...

Before

https://i.imgur.com/GQ6JP4O.png

Now
https://i.imgur.com/DUYrJRG.png

Spoiler!

https://i.imgur.com/a2sthYj.png
https://i.imgur.com/DFOUkPS.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by rothaer

The County Glatz is interesting. It most of the time belonged to Bohemia, when the Prussians besides the biggest part od Silesia took it too in 1741. Since then it's viewed as a part of Silesia. But nevertheless the inhabitants od the County Glatz had an own, somewhat seperate from the Silesian mainstream, identity. The county is surrounded 3/4 by mountain ridges and has just one opening towards the rest of Silesia.

I now noted that it has an elevated genetic similarity with pops towards the Balkans. Did here some Vlach-like people come along the Carpathians, Beskids and Sudets? Vlachs in Moravia are in the records of history...

Vlachs were semi-nomadic pastoralists well into late Medieval times and they wandered and settled down everywhere in the Balkans and East-Central Europe. Who knows, maybe they even reached West Silesia in bigger numbers, even though I doubt there are any historic records about this. But interestingly I don't see this great Balkanic influence in them, they seem to be mostly an East German/East-Central European mix:

Distance to: German_County_Glatz
2.91921222 Austrian
3.92306003 German_North_Bohemia
4.75883389 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
5.11464564 German_Saxony
5.64707004 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
6.14635664 Slovenian
6.60062118 Hungarian
7.01050640 Austrian_Carinthia
7.28628849 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
7.31126528 Croat_North
7.45774765 Czech
7.66368710 Hungarian_Alföld
7.80775256 German_Bavarian_Swabia
7.94814444 Hungarian_North
8.18598803 German_Central_Hesse
8.44043245 Slovak
8.55638943 German_Lower_Franconia
8.73916472 German
8.97100329 German_Bavaria_proper
9.07841396 Austrian_Lower_Austria
9.26880251 Croat
9.39302401 Croat_West
9.57534856 Csángó-Ceangău
9.80429498 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
9.88662733 German_West_Prussia

Quote:

Originally Posted by rothaer

The County Glatz is interesting. It most of the time belonged to Bohemia, when the Prussians besides the biggest part od Silesia took it too in 1741. Since then it's viewed as a part of Silesia. But nevertheless the inhabitants od the County Glatz had an own, somewhat seperate from the Silesian mainstream, identity. The county is surrounded 3/4 by mountain ridges and has just one opening towards the rest of Silesia.

I now noted that it has an elevated genetic similarity with pops towards the Balkans. Did here some Vlach-like people come along the Carpathians, Beskids and Sudets? Vlachs in Moravia are in the records of history...

Yes they arrived in Moravia but I heard it was their last stop. But Sudetes were sparcely inhabited so who knows maybe they wandered too.

Germans in Czech Republic (and areas near by like county Glatz) are more Austrian like ("SE German") than north-eastern German like (Meck-Pom, Prussia etc).
They seem mix of southern Germans and Slavs more or less.

But I don't see special Balkanic influence either. It's just that central Euro Celts were pretty woggy genetically, and even heavily overlapping Balkan Illyrians.
These Germans probably have high Celtic affinity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

Here is the average (these are academic samples, but of course Jews from GEDmatch can be added too):

Code:

German_Jewish,15.85,5.92,19.08,9.77,39.16,6.35,0.44,0.73,0.33,0.39,0.40,0.89,0.70

Distance to: German_Jewish

4.25860306 Jew_Italy

5.16441671 Jew_Moldova

6.35037007 Jew_Sephardi

6.37775039 Jew_Ashkenazi

6.40543519 Jew_Algeria

6.89935504 Jew_Morroco

8.56658625 Jew_Tunisia

8.65227716 Italian_Calabria

9.05433046 Maltese

9.57498825 Greek_Symi

You know I'm opposed to you Piotr but do you have their Dodecad results?
Also I wish someone could share new Moroccan and Sephardic Jewish samples for Dod. What we have is from the original spreadsheet, might be inaccurate.

Distance to:	German_Jewish
4.25860306	Jew_Italy
5.16441671	Jew_Moldova
6.35037007	Jew_Sephardi
6.37775039	Jew_Ashkenazi
6.40543519	Jew_Algeria
6.89935504	Jew_Morroco
8.56658625	Jew_Tunisia
8.65227716	Italian_Calabria
9.05433046	Maltese
9.57498825	Greek_Symi

Here is how Celtic samples from Austria plot:

Distance to: Austria_IA_average

0.01878363 French_Auvergne
0.02107609 Spanish_Barcelones
0.02113828 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02252736 French_Occitanie
0.02340511 French_Provence
0.02344695 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02374514 Swiss_French
0.02376993 Spanish_Girona
0.02398743 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02408162 Spanish_Lleida
0.02418693 Spanish_Penedes
0.02423595 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02466524 Italian_Northeast
0.02482884 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02523660 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02557335 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02658093 Spanish_Baleares
0.02677327 Italian_Veneto
0.02748863 Spanish_Menorca
0.02769109 Swiss_German
0.02818677 Spanish_Pirineu
0.02860195 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02871866 Spanish_Cataluna
0.02935637 Spanish_Valencia
0.02959218 Italian_Bergamo

Not very different from IA "Croatians" who were mainly "Illyrian"

Distance to: Croatia_IA_average

0.01155399 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.01251120 Italian_Veneto
0.01665255 Italian_Bergamo
0.01989058 Italian_Northeast
0.02017045 French_Provence
0.02086882 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02146604 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02182941 Spanish_Baleares
0.02322095 Italian_Lombardy
0.02341551 Spanish_Girona
0.02442572 Italian_Piedmont
0.02452262 Spanish_Penedes
0.02497252 Swiss_French
0.02499532 Spanish_Menorca
0.02525368 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02635607 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02661250 Swiss_Italian
0.02662787 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02673346 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02675787 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02685927 Spanish_Lleida
0.02837549 French_Auvergne
0.02971066 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03056496 Italian_Liguria
0.03064298 Spanish_Pirineu

Czech IA is more northern shifted, but it has some outliers who look very Germanic and not Celtic (Scandinavian like samples)
this kind of DNA is probably responsible for southernish shift of some Germans (plus actual Roman DNA but in czech lands it was not the case, unless indirect transmission - austrian settlers for eg.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Here is how Celtic samples from Austria plot:

Distance to: Austria_IA_average

0.01878363 French_Auvergne
0.02107609 Spanish_Barcelones
0.02113828 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02252736 French_Occitanie
0.02340511 French_Provence
0.02344695 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02374514 Swiss_French
0.02376993 Spanish_Girona
0.02398743 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02408162 Spanish_Lleida
0.02418693 Spanish_Penedes
0.02423595 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02466524 Italian_Northeast
0.02482884 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02523660 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02557335 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02658093 Spanish_Baleares
0.02677327 Italian_Veneto
0.02748863 Spanish_Menorca
0.02769109 Swiss_German
0.02818677 Spanish_Pirineu
0.02860195 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02871866 Spanish_Cataluna
0.02935637 Spanish_Valencia
0.02959218 Italian_Bergamo

Not very different from IA Croats who were mainly "Illyrian"

Distance to: Croatia_IA_average

0.01155399 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.01251120 Italian_Veneto
0.01665255 Italian_Bergamo
0.01989058 Italian_Northeast
0.02017045 French_Provence
0.02086882 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02146604 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02182941 Spanish_Baleares
0.02322095 Italian_Lombardy
0.02341551 Spanish_Girona
0.02442572 Italian_Piedmont
0.02452262 Spanish_Penedes
0.02497252 Swiss_French
0.02499532 Spanish_Menorca
0.02525368 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02635607 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02661250 Swiss_Italian
0.02662787 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02673346 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02675787 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02685927 Spanish_Lleida
0.02837549 French_Auvergne
0.02971066 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03056496 Italian_Liguria
0.03064298 Spanish_Pirineu

Czech IA is more northern shifted, but it has some outliers who look very Germanic and not Celtic (Scandinavian like samples)

So basically it's obvious that continental Celts were basically like some Frenchmen and some Northern guidos?

Switzerland is not Celtic speaking of course but they have some kind of Celtic identity which appears to be not unsubstantiated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto

So basically it's obvious that continental Celts were basically like some Frenchmen and some Northern guidos?

Switzerland is not Celtic speaking of course but they have some kind of Celtic identity which appears to be not unsubstantiated.

If you ask me, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

If you ask me, yes.

And Italics? Do we have any pure Italics?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto

And Italics? Do we have any pure Italics?

Yes, they were Iberian like.

Distance to: ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_average

0.04183473 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.04570194 French_Corsica
0.04771550 Spanish_Castello
0.04843403 Spanish_Baleares
0.04868291 Spanish_Menorca
0.05019594 Spanish_Pirineu
0.05039758 Spanish_Murcia
0.05054424 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.05079895 Spanish_Aragon
0.05084403 Spanish_Soria
0.05091671 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.05102282 Spanish_Girona
0.05106171 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.05119754 Spanish_Lleida
0.05153013 Spanish_Mallorca
0.05171704 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.05218196 Spanish_Valencia
0.05253162 Italian_Bergamo
0.05257496 Spanish_Alacant
0.05258964 Spanish_Eivissa
0.05296461 Spanish_Cantabria
0.05298299 Spanish_Cataluna
0.05301040 French_South
0.05345731 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.05348050 Spanish_Penedes

Distance to: ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_average

0.03414474 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03481290 Spanish_Menorca
0.03505798 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03525011 Spanish_Baleares
0.03555346 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03584994 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03586453 Italian_Bergamo
0.03666856 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03676139 Spanish_Lleida
0.03685889 Spanish_Aragon
0.03711660 Spanish_Castello
0.03721826 Spanish_Girona
0.03753948 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.03761406 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03779631 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03809530 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03873419 Italian_Lombardy
0.03899137 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03911349 Spanish_Valencia
0.03944179 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03972755 Italian_Veneto
0.03974493 Spanish_Penedes
0.03978986 French_South
0.04143959 French_Corsica
0.04188122 Spanish_La_Rioja

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto

And Italics? Do we have any pure Italics?

This average is made from over 40 samples

Code:

Italy_IA,0.1252054,0.1572337,0.0369118,-0.015055,0.0492024,-0.009183,-0.0007623,-0.003287,0.0229865,0.0439455,0.000412,0.0113643,-0.0206457,-0.0067402,-0.002486,-0.002794,0.0032722,0.0008559,0.002376,-0.0034041,0.0010926,0.0046596,-0.0024199,-0.0046376,0.0006396

Reconstructed Eurogenes K13 values

Code:

Italy_IA,32.16332,10.90275,35.1878,2.44122,14.28425,2.70792,0.99132,0,0.2403,0.12827,0.30152,0.49833,0.15218 1.42958228 41.80% Dutch_South + 58.20% Sardinian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf

This average is made from over 40 samples

Code:

Italy_IA,0.1252054,0.1572337,0.0369118,-0.015055,0.0492024,-0.009183,-0.0007623,-0.003287,0.0229865,0.0439455,0.000412,0.0113643,-0.0206457,-0.0067402,-0.002486,-0.002794,0.0032722,0.0008559,0.002376,-0.0034041,0.0010926,0.0046596,-0.0024199,-0.0046376,0.0006396

Which Italian regions or provinces have the most Italic ancestry?

That Italic average by Brazorf is only 23.8% Yamnaya on the Davidski gold standard calculator. That's pretty low if you ask me. Some modern Southern Europeans would score more. Swarthy Italics :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto

Which Italian regions or provinces have the most Italic ancestry?

Honestly, it's hard to quantify because models are almost always overfitted and do not make sense historically. Of all the Italians, the most akin are those in the north, particularly those with more EEF like the Lombards, although North Italians looks more like the Croatian Iron Age samples since they score a bit more Steppe and CHG/Iran_N than the Italics. The most related are instead the Iberians, although they are not descended from the Italics.

https://i.imgur.com/pIMBxDa.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto

That Italic average by Brazorf is only 23.8% Yamnaya on the Davidski gold standard calculator. That's pretty low if you ask me. Some modern Southern Europeans would score more. Swarthy Italics :D

It has high WHG, around duble than modern northern Italians. But lower steppe and modern north Italians have extra "east med". Yamnaya were swarthy pigmented btw.

Target: Italy_IA
Distance: 2.8135% / 0.02813454

65.0 TUR_Barcin_N
23.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.2 WHG

Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 3.0906% / 0.03090624

50.4 TUR_Barcin_N
32.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.0 WHG

Target: Italian_Piedmont
Distance: 2.0752% / 0.02075196

40.2 TUR_Barcin_N
33.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
21.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
4.8 WHG

Italics were more Anatolian farmer (*"proto southern Europeans"), and Anatolian farmers had loads of WHG in them as well. As you can see, Italics lacked Tepecik Ciftlik neolithic like ancestry, which is between anatolian farmers and levantine farmers, brought by imperial Romans from near east/anatolia during imperial times.

Croatian IA Illyrians also totally lacked east med Tepecik Ciftlik like ancestry.

Target: Croatia_IA_average
Distance: 2.2851% / 0.02285136

57.4 TUR_Barcin_N
34.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.8 WHG

here are Austrian Celts, very similar to Illyrians with bit higher WHG

Target: Austria_IA_average
Distance: 3.3566% / 0.03356621

54.4 TUR_Barcin_N
33.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.0 WHG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Anatolian farmers had loads of WHG in them as well.

Anatolian Farmers had 0%, the ones with WHG were Pinarbasi_HG (6%) and Boncuklu_N (5%). As a component EEF has little connection to the WHGs.

Code:

Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15 0.48572899 Ajeje_Brazorf_scaled 0.48600365 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG 0.48871596 TUR_Boncuklu_N 0.52049839 TUR_Barcin_N

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Italics lacked Tepecik Ciftlik neolithic like ancestry, which is between anatolian farmers and levantine farmers, brought by imperial Romans from near east/anatolia during imperial times.

If I had to guess, I'd say the East Med stuff came in the first two centuries before Christ and not just in the Imperial Age. This period coincides with the highest wrecks in the Mediterranean.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...KHt3Dl1R_zzacQ

Also, Tepecik_Ciftlik_N is redundant, since as you also specified it is an almost perfect mix of different components.

Code:

Target: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N Distance: 1.8855% / 0.01885526 64.6 TUR_Barcin_N 18.2 Levant_PPNB 17.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf

Anatolian Farmers had 0%, the ones with WHG were Pinarbasi_HG (6%) and Boncuklu_N (5%). As a component EEF has little connection to the WHGs.

Are your sure? I've read very different take on that but never fully understood it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

Distance to: CreodaMum(Staffordshire)
2.62998099 German_Westphalia
2.66037591 German_Lower_Saxony_south
2.83118350 English_Midlands
2.91192376 English
2.94343337 English_North
3.03432035 English_Southeast
3.12904139 Welsh
3.22023291 Dutch
3.22962846 Scottish_East
3.24232941 Scottish
3.27583577 Scottish_Northeast
3.47466545 English_Southwest
3.49625514 Scottish_North-Highlands
3.60002778 Dutch_Central
3.60066660 Scottish_Gàidhealtachd
3.62339620 Scottish_Southwest
3.77544699 Irish_Leinster
3.80197317 German_Northwest
3.86297813 Orcadian
4.33601199 Dutch_North
4.48811765 German_North
4.49560897 Irish
4.59661832 Irish_Connacht
4.80980249 Icelandic
4.97711764 Irish_Munster[/CODE]

Wow, your mother is Germanic shifted as f**K. Btw, in case you are wondering sample size for both Westphalia and lower Saxony south is decent, especially for Westphalia.
incredibly tight fit towards Germans! :o

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Are your sure? I've read very different take on that but never fully understood it.

Yes, I'm sure. Do you mean deep-ancestry or something like that? Global25 is not the best tool but I get this:

Target: TUR_Barcin_N
Distance: 19.0669% / 0.19066918
76.2 MIDDLE_EAST
12.0 WHG
11.8 CHG

Target: TUR_Barcin_N
Distance: 27.2112% / 0.27211197
56.0 CHG
24.2 TAFORALT
19.8 WHG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf

Before

https://i.imgur.com/GQ6JP4O.png

Now
https://i.imgur.com/DUYrJRG.png

Spoiler!

https://i.imgur.com/a2sthYj.png
https://i.imgur.com/DFOUkPS.png

I watched and all points do make sense imo. The somewhat "Balkan" shift of County Glatz is unexpected to me, but it was also already visible in some results.

The fact that all averages do have a meaningful relation to each other on the PCA (showing a bio-geographic cline) confirms that also averages that are based on low sample sizes seem valid, if they are based on deeply rooted samples (like here). Of course nevertheless more samples are much appreciated.