Large-Scale Migration into Southern Britain During the Middle to Late Bronze Age

Target: Albannach_scaled
Distance: 0.8952% / 0.00895209 | R3P
57.8 England_MIA_LIA
24.6 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
17.6 CZE_IA_Hallstatt_low_res

Distance to: Albannach_scaled
0.02092895 Scotland_MIA:I2983
0.02239518 Scotland_LIA:I27385
0.02267340 England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA:I13754
0.02323438 England_IA_EarlyMedieval:I14550
0.02325180 England_MIA:I20586
0.02433610 England_EIA:I11149
0.02485582 Scotland_LIA:I3568
0.02497923 England_MIA:I12771
0.02508932 England_EastYorkshire_LIA:I5502
0.02519825 England_MIA_LIA:I20623
0.02601215 FRA_GrandEst_IA2:I20817
0.02633184 England_MIA_LIA:I20622
0.02645243 England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA:I5508
0.02647888 England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA:I14104
0.02651991 Scotland_MIA_LIA:I16422
0.02667347 England_MIA_LIA:I11992
0.02673551 England_EIA:I11154
0.02685724 England_MIA_LIA_o:I20632
0.02688990 England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA:I22060
0.02694245 England_MIA_LIA:I20631
0.02717130 England_MIA:I20589
0.02734644 England_EastYorkshire_MIA:I12412
0.02761851 England_EIA:I13688
0.02764730 England_MIA:I20627
0.02765068 England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA:I14101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Token

I think we should wait for radiocarbon dating before judgment, I doubt very much that they are really from the Iron Age.

Or maybe the Proto-Slavic [or at least Proto-North Slavic?] homeland was in Slovakia, Upper Hungary and Zakarpattia? According to a Medieval Legend from my region (Wielkopolska), Slavs originated from the Carpathian Basin and their ancestor was called Pan (the name of Pannonia comes from him):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech,_Czech,_and_Rus

"According to Wielkopolska Chronicle (13th century), Slavs are descendants of Pan, a Pannonian prince. He had three sons - Lech (the youngest), Rus, and Čech (the oldest), who decided to settle west, north, and east." - Lech was the ancestor of Poles/Lechites, Rus was the ancestor of East Slavs, and Cech was the ancestor of Southern West Slavs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

Or maybe the Proto-Slavic [or at least Proto-North Slavic?] homeland was in Slovakia, Upper Hungary and Zakarpattia? According to a Medieval Legend from my region (Wielkopolska), Slavs originated from the Carpathian Basin and their ancestor was called Pan (the name of Pannonia comes from him):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech,_Czech,_and_Rus

"According to Wielkopolska Chronicle (13th century), Slavs are descendants of Pan, a Pannonian prince. He had three sons - Lech (the youngest), Rus, and Čech (the oldest), who decided to settle west, north, and east." - Lech was the ancestor of Poles/Lechites, Rus was the ancestor of East Slavs, and Cech was the ancestor of Southern West Slavs.

Pannonia couldn't have been the Heimat of Slavic people since Slavic invaders arrived here only in the early 6th century and settled only in small pockets in the northern and southern areas. Prior it was inhabited by Illyrians, Celts, Romans, Sarmatians, Huns and Germanics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunai

Prior it was inhabited by Illyrians, Celts, Romans and Germanics.

What is the evidence that such peoples lived in North-Eastern parts of the Carpathian Basin (such as present-day Slovakia, Zakarpattia, parts of Upper Hungary, North-Eastern Hungary, and parts of northern Romania)?

BTW - Pannonia / Carpathian Basin is large enough to include Heimats of many populations.

In fact, never in history was Pannonia / Carpathian Basin mono-ethnic. It has always been multi-ethnic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

BTW - Pannonia / Carpathian Basin is large enough to include Heimats of many populations.

In fact, never in history was Pannonia / Carpathian Basin mono-ethnic. It has always been multi-ethnic.

We can always speculate but without solid archeological evidence to prove this theory of the Slavic Urheimat within the Carpathian Basin I don't see this credible. As I said, there were pockets living in the northern and southern parts, from migrations, but we don't have much evidence of them in the core Pannonian Plain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunai

We can always speculate but without solid archeological evidence to prove this theory of the Slavic Urheimat within the Carpathian Basin I don't see this credible. As I said, there were pockets living in the northern and southern parts, from migrations, but we don't have much evidence of them on the core Pannonian Plain.

Of course I'm talking about the forest zone (such as Slovakia) and mixed forest-plain areas, not about the core Pannonian Plain.

Samples from 1000 BC up to 100 AD.

https://pastebin.com/raw/TLFmWx1A

Averages

Code:

Austria,0.129379,0.1479287,0.046386,0.004845,0.043085,0.0035327,0.0025067,0.0059997,0.015271,0.0221717,-0.0011367,0.0065443,-0.0104557,-0.0031193,0.001493,-0.0047733,-0.0034333,0.005701,0.0079607,-0.001959,0.0017883,-4.13e-05,-0.003533,-0.0011647,-0.0044307 Channel_Islands,0.1320345,0.142174,0.0580768,0.0378718,0.0540868,0.0062052,0.0027615,0.005596,0.0160552,0.0124375,0.0041408,0.0008242,-0.0108892,-0.0082915,0.0216135,0.007027,0.0005215,0.0039272,-0.001037,-0.0010945,-3.13e-05,0.0058425,-0.0072102,-0.0009035,0.0013773 Croatia,0.1279371,0.1472518,0.0327719,-0.0010659,0.0357912,-0.0008367,0.0013395,0.0026077,0.0106761,0.026971,-0.0002598,0.0089171,-0.0164866,-0.0073076,-0.0022122,-0.00179,0.0047459,0.0030532,0.0073155,-0.0047398,-0.0017719,0.0020526,0.0009982,-0.0002049,-0.0026345 Czech,0.1290754,0.1380781,0.058196,0.0333982,0.0435671,0.0083295,0.0029376,0.0038537,0.0092786,0.0122554,-0.003321,0.0041263,-0.0117814,-0.0096381,0.0081002,0.0061168,0.0011387,0.0027238,0.0022144,0.0019155,0.0033192,0.0028687,-0.003073,-0.000488,-0.0002195 England,0.1293168,0.1347401,0.0610305,0.0471798,0.0395496,0.0162938,0.0024705,0.0045536,0.0067624,0.0060637,-0.0046244,0.0064822,-0.0150846,-0.0149387,0.0213327,0.0062407,-0.006071,0.0016668,0.0015441,0.0027032,0.005874,0.0039129,-0.0023689,0.0053353,-0.0006908 France,0.1286912,0.1396352,0.058713,0.028424,0.0453544,0.0070942,0.0033048,0.0029999,0.0132428,0.0192829,-0.0022633,0.0074466,-0.0140762,-0.0096766,0.0120028,-0.0003977,-0.0097054,0.0022329,0.0021526,-2.35e-05,0.0033457,0.0026354,-0.0015869,-0.0014384,-0.0023277 Hungary,0.1286675,0.1438455,0.0501178,0.0178861,0.0425848,0.0035268,0.0038923,0.0038508,0.0105714,0.0168418,-0.0016914,0.0035937,-0.0075507,0.0008458,-0.004753,4.42e-05,0.0048785,0.0005675,0.003284,0.0007529,-0.0015623,0.003269,4.88e-05,-0.0071469,-0.0018561 Netherlands,0.1303273,0.127449,0.0631047,0.0625543,0.0378018,0.0168727,0.0039948,0.0031537,-0.0011588,-0.0084738,-0.0051423,0.0071685,-0.0138997,-0.0169047,0.0249273,0.0028065,-0.0039765,-0.0008658,0.0022835,0.0055028,0.006239,0.005214,0.0020952,0.0092985,-0.0010977 Scotland,0.1288911,0.1319704,0.0629972,0.0580939,0.0343507,0.0220191,0.0038608,0.005692,0.0023764,0.0003558,-0.0045779,0.0062587,-0.0142998,-0.0154203,0.0258838,0.0044765,-0.014367,0.0016951,0.001281,0.0047226,0.0059062,0.0053994,-0.0020308,0.0070405,-0.0005189 Slovakia,0.1263435,0.1441037,0.046499,0.0185402,0.0380839,0.0026075,0.001363,0.004442,0.0089276,0.0139684,-0.0015183,0.0023304,-0.0068682,0.0015551,-0.0024226,-0.0014453,0.0016624,0.0024958,0.005349,-0.0014069,-0.0016097,0.0019907,0.0009922,-0.0054706,0.0001138 Slovenia,0.1297585,0.1477205,0.0457186,0.0061867,0.0436529,-0.0015446,0.0013558,0.0020945,0.0115949,0.0248402,-0.0002998,0.0075856,-0.0162383,-0.0088182,0.0007518,-0.0014075,0.0020862,0.0010134,0.0025042,-0.0029147,-0.0018046,0.0071053,-0.0015263,-0.0026603,-0.0021463 Spain,0.1231565,0.1528373,0.0591703,0.0055556,0.0609036,-0.0006136,0.0010106,0.0069458,0.0342577,0.0455407,-0.0039921,0.0063843,-0.0253169,-0.016322,0.0106812,0.0066562,3.92e-05,0.0019891,-0.0024133,-0.0018883,0.0097205,-0.0015332,-0.0070374,-0.0149296,-0.0028498 Wales,0.1282407,0.1310033,0.0636077,0.0514647,0.04011,0.02352,0.003525,0.000692,-0.0001363,-0.000972,-0.003681,0.0065443,-0.0095637,-0.0197717,0.0207653,0.014187,-0.000391,0.0039277,0.002556,0.003877,-0.001248,0.005482,0.000534,0.0051413,-0.0016763

Distances

Code:

Distance to: Austria_IA 0.01878363 French_Auvergne 0.02107609 Spanish_Barcelones 0.02113828 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.02252736 French_Occitanie 0.02340511 French_Provence Distance to: Channel_Islands_IA 0.02909786 French_Brittany 0.02973195 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.03028545 French_Nord 0.03059148 Belgian 0.03085691 Welsh Distance to: Croatia_IA 0.01155399 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.01251120 Italian_Veneto 0.01665255 Italian_Bergamo 0.01989058 Italian_Northeast 0.02017045 French_Provence Distance to: Czech_IA 0.01670221 French_Nord 0.01725068 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.01782062 Belgian 0.01951751 French_Alsace 0.02096513 French_Paris Distance to: England_IA 0.01098441 Welsh 0.01240287 Orcadian 0.01285693 French_Brittany 0.01304174 Scottish 0.01306670 English Distance to: France_IA 0.01879580 French_Nord 0.01879661 French_Occitanie 0.02086656 French_Paris 0.02104127 Belgian 0.02129152 Swiss_German Distance to: Hungary_IA 0.02426211 French_Auvergne 0.02618206 French_Alsace 0.02649693 French_Occitanie 0.02654256 Swiss_German 0.02695351 Italian_Northeast Distance to: Netherlands_IA 0.02263409 Icelandic 0.02308309 Danish 0.02310034 Norwegian 0.02347134 Irish 0.02440186 Shetlandic Distance to: Scotland_IA 0.01574098 Irish 0.01593509 Orcadian 0.01642439 Icelandic 0.01712923 Scottish 0.02101111 Danish Distance to: Slovakia_IA 0.02285652 French_Alsace 0.02393167 Swiss_German 0.02395181 Italian_Northeast 0.02445995 French_Auvergne 0.02622567 French_Nord Distance to: Slovenia_IA 0.01656948 French_Auvergne 0.01895219 Swiss_French 0.01904903 Spanish_Catalunya_Central 0.01976388 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.01995437 Spanish_Penedes Distance to: Spain_IA 0.01985632 Basque_Spanish 0.02316027 Basque_French 0.02405183 French_South 0.02690191 Spanish_Pais_Vasco 0.03148323 Spanish_La_Rioja Distance to: Wales_IA 0.02253782 Norwegian 0.02370814 Scottish 0.02379858 Irish 0.02397565 Orcadian 0.02443618 Danish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf

Samples from 1000 BC up to 100 AD.

https://pastebin.com/raw/TLFmWx1A

Averages

Code:

Austria,0.129379,0.1479287,0.046386,0.004845,0.043085,0.0035327,0.0025067,0.0059997,0.015271,0.0221717,-0.0011367,0.0065443,-0.0104557,-0.0031193,0.001493,-0.0047733,-0.0034333,0.005701,0.0079607,-0.001959,0.0017883,-4.13e-05,-0.003533,-0.0011647,-0.0044307 Channel_Islands,0.1320345,0.142174,0.0580768,0.0378718,0.0540868,0.0062052,0.0027615,0.005596,0.0160552,0.0124375,0.0041408,0.0008242,-0.0108892,-0.0082915,0.0216135,0.007027,0.0005215,0.0039272,-0.001037,-0.0010945,-3.13e-05,0.0058425,-0.0072102,-0.0009035,0.0013773 Croatia,0.1279371,0.1472518,0.0327719,-0.0010659,0.0357912,-0.0008367,0.0013395,0.0026077,0.0106761,0.026971,-0.0002598,0.0089171,-0.0164866,-0.0073076,-0.0022122,-0.00179,0.0047459,0.0030532,0.0073155,-0.0047398,-0.0017719,0.0020526,0.0009982,-0.0002049,-0.0026345 Czech,0.1290754,0.1380781,0.058196,0.0333982,0.0435671,0.0083295,0.0029376,0.0038537,0.0092786,0.0122554,-0.003321,0.0041263,-0.0117814,-0.0096381,0.0081002,0.0061168,0.0011387,0.0027238,0.0022144,0.0019155,0.0033192,0.0028687,-0.003073,-0.000488,-0.0002195 England,0.1293168,0.1347401,0.0610305,0.0471798,0.0395496,0.0162938,0.0024705,0.0045536,0.0067624,0.0060637,-0.0046244,0.0064822,-0.0150846,-0.0149387,0.0213327,0.0062407,-0.006071,0.0016668,0.0015441,0.0027032,0.005874,0.0039129,-0.0023689,0.0053353,-0.0006908 France,0.1286912,0.1396352,0.058713,0.028424,0.0453544,0.0070942,0.0033048,0.0029999,0.0132428,0.0192829,-0.0022633,0.0074466,-0.0140762,-0.0096766,0.0120028,-0.0003977,-0.0097054,0.0022329,0.0021526,-2.35e-05,0.0033457,0.0026354,-0.0015869,-0.0014384,-0.0023277 Hungary,0.1286675,0.1438455,0.0501178,0.0178861,0.0425848,0.0035268,0.0038923,0.0038508,0.0105714,0.0168418,-0.0016914,0.0035937,-0.0075507,0.0008458,-0.004753,4.42e-05,0.0048785,0.0005675,0.003284,0.0007529,-0.0015623,0.003269,4.88e-05,-0.0071469,-0.0018561 Netherlands,0.1303273,0.127449,0.0631047,0.0625543,0.0378018,0.0168727,0.0039948,0.0031537,-0.0011588,-0.0084738,-0.0051423,0.0071685,-0.0138997,-0.0169047,0.0249273,0.0028065,-0.0039765,-0.0008658,0.0022835,0.0055028,0.006239,0.005214,0.0020952,0.0092985,-0.0010977 Scotland,0.1288911,0.1319704,0.0629972,0.0580939,0.0343507,0.0220191,0.0038608,0.005692,0.0023764,0.0003558,-0.0045779,0.0062587,-0.0142998,-0.0154203,0.0258838,0.0044765,-0.014367,0.0016951,0.001281,0.0047226,0.0059062,0.0053994,-0.0020308,0.0070405,-0.0005189 Slovakia,0.1263435,0.1441037,0.046499,0.0185402,0.0380839,0.0026075,0.001363,0.004442,0.0089276,0.0139684,-0.0015183,0.0023304,-0.0068682,0.0015551,-0.0024226,-0.0014453,0.0016624,0.0024958,0.005349,-0.0014069,-0.0016097,0.0019907,0.0009922,-0.0054706,0.0001138 Slovenia,0.1297585,0.1477205,0.0457186,0.0061867,0.0436529,-0.0015446,0.0013558,0.0020945,0.0115949,0.0248402,-0.0002998,0.0075856,-0.0162383,-0.0088182,0.0007518,-0.0014075,0.0020862,0.0010134,0.0025042,-0.0029147,-0.0018046,0.0071053,-0.0015263,-0.0026603,-0.0021463 Spain,0.1231565,0.1528373,0.0591703,0.0055556,0.0609036,-0.0006136,0.0010106,0.0069458,0.0342577,0.0455407,-0.0039921,0.0063843,-0.0253169,-0.016322,0.0106812,0.0066562,3.92e-05,0.0019891,-0.0024133,-0.0018883,0.0097205,-0.0015332,-0.0070374,-0.0149296,-0.0028498 Wales,0.1282407,0.1310033,0.0636077,0.0514647,0.04011,0.02352,0.003525,0.000692,-0.0001363,-0.000972,-0.003681,0.0065443,-0.0095637,-0.0197717,0.0207653,0.014187,-0.000391,0.0039277,0.002556,0.003877,-0.001248,0.005482,0.000534,0.0051413,-0.0016763

Distances

Code:

Distance to: Austria_IA 0.01878363 French_Auvergne 0.02107609 Spanish_Barcelones 0.02113828 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.02252736 French_Occitanie 0.02340511 French_Provence Distance to: Channel_Islands_IA 0.02909786 French_Brittany 0.02973195 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.03028545 French_Nord 0.03059148 Belgian 0.03085691 Welsh Distance to: Croatia_IA 0.01155399 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.01251120 Italian_Veneto 0.01665255 Italian_Bergamo 0.01989058 Italian_Northeast 0.02017045 French_Provence Distance to: Czech_IA 0.01670221 French_Nord 0.01725068 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.01782062 Belgian 0.01951751 French_Alsace 0.02096513 French_Paris Distance to: England_IA 0.01098441 Welsh 0.01240287 Orcadian 0.01285693 French_Brittany 0.01304174 Scottish 0.01306670 English Distance to: France_IA 0.01879580 French_Nord 0.01879661 French_Occitanie 0.02086656 French_Paris 0.02104127 Belgian 0.02129152 Swiss_German Distance to: Hungary_IA 0.02426211 French_Auvergne 0.02618206 French_Alsace 0.02649693 French_Occitanie 0.02654256 Swiss_German 0.02695351 Italian_Northeast Distance to: Netherlands_IA 0.02263409 Icelandic 0.02308309 Danish 0.02310034 Norwegian 0.02347134 Irish 0.02440186 Shetlandic Distance to: Scotland_IA 0.01574098 Irish 0.01593509 Orcadian 0.01642439 Icelandic 0.01712923 Scottish 0.02101111 Danish Distance to: Slovakia_IA 0.02285652 French_Alsace 0.02393167 Swiss_German 0.02395181 Italian_Northeast 0.02445995 French_Auvergne 0.02622567 French_Nord Distance to: Slovenia_IA 0.01656948 French_Auvergne 0.01895219 Swiss_French 0.01904903 Spanish_Catalunya_Central 0.01976388 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.01995437 Spanish_Penedes Distance to: Spain_IA 0.01985632 Basque_Spanish 0.02316027 Basque_French 0.02405183 French_South 0.02690191 Spanish_Pais_Vasco 0.03148323 Spanish_La_Rioja Distance to: Wales_IA 0.02253782 Norwegian 0.02370814 Scottish 0.02379858 Irish 0.02397565 Orcadian 0.02443618 Danish

There seems to be an interesting divide between Iron Age Hungary and Slovenia-Croatia, if I see it correctly. I get very large distance to these ancient people, above 0.04 the closest:

Distance to: Dunai
0.04286217 Czech
0.04606585 Slovakia
0.04712959 Hungary
0.04987356 England
0.05032114 Wales
0.05293854 France
0.05370540 Netherlands
0.05500610 Channel_Islands
0.05679779 Scotland
0.06255860 Austria
0.06471932 Slovenia
0.07067229 Croatia
0.09523558 Spain

Target: Franco_Béranais_J.S
Distance: 3.2829% / 0.03282921
57.6 France
25.4 Spain
17.0 Austria

Distance to: Franco_Béranais_J.S
0.03677698 France
0.04153945 Austria
0.04344049 Slovenia
0.04898228 Slovakia
0.04916221 Czech
0.04939257 Hungary
0.04972545 Channel_Islands
0.04984205 Spain
0.05278901 Croatia
0.05902783 England
0.07098523 Scotland
0.07424572 Wales
0.08084103 Netherlands