Yes, hungarus didn't call themselves hungarus, the conquerors gived them this name. The conquerors thought they were folk of Attila, remnants of old population what existed in the Carpathian Basin under the hunnic rule. The medieval hungarian peoples were descedants of hungarus and conquerors.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
It's not my problem if you don't know the Latin alphabet or know how to count, then. You've waxed poetic about Uralics and haplogroup N in post #4, but completely ignore the dominance of R1. Not only is N a minority, but it is not even the largest haplogroup by %. Yet you claim that these must be the "core" of the conquerors because N is associated with Mansi? Amazingly talented leap of faith. You're the one who had to frame the article in post #4. Also, 15%? Really? Is it because you are again, like so many other people, attributing "Turkicness" to exclusively East Asian admixture? Now you are just making the lines tighter intentionally as to what is "Turkic" so as to again, minimize the input.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
At least now we live in a time where the question is not "if" but "how much." You can move your goalposts all you'd like, but you will never erase these facts without erasing the Hungarian identity.
So who brought the Hungarian language, the hungarus or the conquerors?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondie
IMO it was the conquerors who brought it. It had to be a population with significant amount of N haplogroup. Since the "Hungarus" people, as you describe them, don't seem to have a strong Uralic component, it makes it very likely that the conquerors brought that influence.
At the same time, if the language was that of a minority (the conquerors), it would have been very difficult to impose it to the majority, particularly to an illiterate population. Also, the conquerors didn't have the advantage the Slavs had, the use of a Slavic language in Church. So probably the Hungarian language was adopted slowly by creating a social ladder based on assimilation into the culture.
Related to this, certain Vlach groups under Hungarian influence used clan-based organization ("neam" means clan in Romanian, and is derived from Hungarian), and that practice survived for quite a long time during the medieval period in Moldova. Wallachians, although more Balkanic in nature, have always had a distaste for anything clan based, possibly a remnant of eastern roman culture.
https://i.imgur.com/JkBmV6t.pngQuote:
Modern averages
New Hungarian samplesCode:Abazin,37.25,34.25,0,1,19.5,5.125,3.125
Abkhasian,47.6666667,37.8888889,0,0,14,0.6666667,0
Adygei_Krasnodar,39.2,35.6,0,0.5,20.8,2.5,1.1
Adygei_Shovgenovsky,38.7,36,0,0.5,20.2,2.8,1.5
Alaskan_Athabskan,0,0,3,0,18,67,11
Albanian,17.5,53.5,0,5.3333333,22.8333333,0.3333333,0.5
Aleut,2,23,0,7.8571429,34.2857143,29.1428571,4
Altaian_Chelkan,4.25,11.5,0.25,1.375,28,38.375,16.125
Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky,5.6666667,9,0.1666667,0.6666667,12.1666667,45.6666667,26.5
Altaian_Ongudaisky,4.5555556,8.2222222,0,0.3333333,13.1111111,46.6666667,26.7777778
Armenian,45.2,44.2,0,0,10.3,0.1,0
Armenian_Hemsheni,43.25,43.375,0,0.75,12.25,0.125,0
Assyrian,46.5,43.6,0,0.1,9.3,0.2,0.1
Avar,39.1111111,28.6666667,0,0.1111111,31.3333333,0.8888889,0
Azeri,42.4444444,37,0,0.1111111,13.3333333,3.1111111,4
Azeri_Dagestan,41.125,34.625,0,0.5,18.125,1.75,3.375
Balkar,37.8,35,0,0.5,19.7,4,2.9
Bashkir_Arkhangelsk,6.7142857,24.1428571,0,5.2857143,32,23.7142857,8.1428571
Bashkir_Baimaksky,8.125,19,0,3.125,27.5,30.25,11.875
Bashkir_Davlekanovo,9.4444444,25.4444444,0,6.1111111,30.1111111,21.7777778,7.1111111
Bashkir_Ianaul,7.125,27.375,0,6.625,34.25,20.375,4.125
Bashkir_Ilishevsky,8.1666667,27.6666667,0,6.3333333,33.5,19.6666667,4.6666667
Bashkir_Ishimbai,8.25,21,0,4,28.25,28,10.5
Bashkir_Karaidelsky,6.5,25.75,0,5.5,33.5,22.5,5.75
Bashkir_Kugarchinsky,7.8571429,20.1428571,0,3.4285714,27.8571429,30.2857143,10.8571429
Basque,6.2,54.3,0,14.3,24.9,0,0.2
Belarusian,4.3,40.9,0,12.8,40.8,0.6,0.6
Besermyan,7,25.8333333,0,6,38.5,21.5,0.8333333
Bulgarian,15,49.8888889,0,6.6666667,27.5555556,0.4444444,0.4444444
Buryat_Aginsky,3.8,4.6,0,0.4,4,53.2,34.4
Buryat_Duldurginsky,3.5,5,0,0.5,3.25,51.75,36.5
Buryat_Irkutsk,3.9,5.4,0,0.8,4,52.4,33.8
Buryat_Khorinsky,3.6,5,0,0.2,3.4,53.2,34.6
Buryat_Zakamensky,4,5.1666667,0,0.3333333,3.6666667,53.3333333,33.6666667
Chechen,39.4444444,33.2222222,0,0,24.6666667,1.6666667,0.6666667
Chukchi,0,0,0,0,10.2,89.7,0
Chuvash_Cheboksary,5.5,27.6,0,8,35.7,20.9,2.3
Chuvash_Tatarstan,5,29.6666667,0,8.5,37,18.1666667,2
Circassian,37.4444444,34.8888889,0,0.6666667,20,3.7777778,3
Croatian,9.9,47.9,0,8.8,32.9,0,0.4
Cypriot,35.125,53.375,0,0.75,10,0.25,0.5
Czech,6.3,44.6,0,11,37.8,0.1,0.2
Dai,0,0,0,0,0.1,0,99.9
Darginian,38.625,27.875,0,0,32.875,0.625,0
Daur,0.6666667,1.4444444,0,0,0.4444444,35.4444444,61.7777778
Dolgan,1.75,6,0,1,5.5,68.75,17.25
Dungan,5,3.5,0,0.1,3.8,12.6,75.1
Enets,0,6.3333333,0,1.6666667,16.3333333,75.6666667,0
English,5.7,46.4,0,10.5,37.1,0,0
Estonian,0.6,38.3,0,14.2,44.9,1.5,0.4
Even,1.3333333,13.6666667,0,3.6666667,12.8888889,57.1111111,11.4444444
Evenk_FarEast,0.6,7.2,0,2,6.4,54,29.8
Evenk_Transbaikal,0.5,2.625,0,0.375,1,88.125,7.625
Ezid,47.375,35.625,0.375,1.375,11.875,2.5,1
Finnish,1.6,37.2,0,12.7,41.8,6.6,0.3
French,7.5,52.1,0.1,12.4,27.6,0,0.1
Gagauz,17.5555556,48.4444444,0.1111111,6,25.8888889,1.5555556,0.4444444
Georgian,47.3333333,41.3333333,0,0,11.1666667,0,0
Georgian_Turkey,46.1428571,40.8571429,0.2857143,0,11.5714286,0.7142857,0.4285714
Georgian_Zugdidi,49.125,39.25,0,0,11.875,0,0
Greek.WGA,19.7,52.7,1.2,4.8,21,0.2,0.5
Hezhen,0.25,0.25,0,0,0.125,39,60.5
Hungarian,8.1,45.95,0,10.15,34.75,0.6,0.65
Icelandic,4.125,43.625,0,12,40,0,0
Ingushian,39.3,34.2,0,0.2,22.6,2.5,1.2
Italian_North,14.6,54.9,0.3,7.3,22.8,0,0
Italian_South,25,53.75,0,3.75,16.75,0,0.25
Itelmen,0,0,0,0,9,90.4285714,0.4285714
Kabardinian,35.1111111,34.8888889,0,0.5555556,21.2222222,5.6666667,2.4444444
Kaitag,37.75,29.5,0,0,32.25,0.5,0
Kalmyk,3.9,7.4,0,0.4,7,41.6,39.8
Karachai,38.7,33.7,0,0.7,20.2,4.3,3
Karakalpak,12.9,16.7,0,2,14.8,29,24.7
Karelian,0.3,35.7,0,13.6,42.2,8,0.1
Kazakh,9.3333333,14.6666667,0.6666667,2,13.3333333,30.3333333,29.3333333
Kazakh_Argyn,9.6666667,11.6666667,0.3333333,2.3333333,12.3333333,33.6666667,30.3333333
Kazakh_Kypchak,9.1666667,13,0,0.8333333,13.6666667,32.8333333,30.8333333
Kazakh_Naiman,9.3333333,13.5,0,1.5,13.5,31.6666667,30.1666667
Ket,0,4,0,0.1,27.8,67.9,0
Khakass_Askizskiy,3.3333333,9.3333333,0.1666667,0.5,22.3333333,46,18.6666667
Khakass_Beiskiy,4,7,0,0.4,17,49.6,22.2
Khakass_Kachin,3.875,9.875,0,1,19.375,44.5,21.25
Khamnegan,2.7,4.5,0,0.5,3.2,54.2,34.8
Kubachinian,40.3333333,27.6666667,0,0,31.8333333,0.1666667,0
Kumyk,37.75,34.625,0,0.25,22.625,2.875,2.125
Kurd,48.875,36.5,0,0.375,12.375,1.25,0.75
Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan.DG,8,11.1,0,0.5,12.4,33.9,34
Kyrgyz_Tajikistan,10.75,10.75,0,1,13,32,32.75
Lak,39,28.1111111,0,0,32.1111111,0.7777778,0.1111111
Lezgin,40.3333333,31.2222222,0,0,27.3333333,0.8888889,0.4444444
Lithuanian,0.9,39.3,0,15.5,44.2,0,0.2
Mansi,0.1111111,12.5555556,0,2.8888889,34.7777778,49.5555556,0
Mari.SG,4,23,0,8,36,27,1
Miao,0,0,0,0,0,0,100
Moldavian,15.4,49.8,0,6.2,27.3,1.1,0.3
Mongol,4.5,5.1,0,0.3,4.9,41.3,43.9
Mongol_Sainnoyon,3.875,5.125,0,0,3.625,42,44.75
Mongol_Zasagt,3.5714286,4.7142857,0,0.4285714,4.7142857,40.7142857,46
Mongola,0.6666667,1.6666667,0,0,2,21.5,74.5
Mordovian,5.4,35.4,0,11.1,40.4,6.4,1.7
Nanai,0,0,0,0,0,58.2,41.8
Naxi,0.1111111,0,0,0,0,8.7777778,91.1111111
Negidal,0,0,0,0,0,65,35
Nganasan,0,0,0,0.1,1.2,98.6,0
Nivh,0,0,0,0,0,57,43
Nogai_Astrakhan,9.3333333,18,0,2.1666667,17,27.5,25.8333333
Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia,26.2222222,28.4444444,0,1.4444444,19.5555556,12.4444444,11.5555556
Nogai_Stavropol,13.1,20.3,0,1.4,17.6,24.3,23.1
Norwegian,4.3,43.6,0,11.7,39.9,0.2,0.2
Orcadian,5.4,44.2,0,11.3,38.8,0,0
Oroqen,0.1111111,0.8888889,0,0,0.1111111,51.2222222,47.7777778
Ossetian,39.5454545,34.9090909,0,0.1818182,19.5454545,3.2727273,2.4545455
Romanian,12.6,49.9,0,6.8,29.5,0.6,0.7
Russian_Archangelsk_Krasnoborsky,1.5,36.1666667,0,12.8333333,40.3333333,8.1666667,0.5
Russian_Archangelsk_Leshukonsky,0.5,32.5,0,11.5,42,14,0.5
Russian_Belgorod,5.5,41.75,0,12.5,39.25,1,0.25
Russian_Cheremisinovsky,5.25,40.25,0,12.75,39,1.25,1.25
Russian_Ershichi,5.2857143,40.1428571,0,13.7142857,39.4285714,0.7142857,0.4285714
Russian_Kaluga,3.5,40.25,0,12.75,41,2,0
Russian_Orel,5.25,40,0,12.25,39.5,2.75,0.25
Russian_Pskov,2.3333333,38.8333333,0,14.5,42.3333333,1.3333333,0.8333333
Russian_Ryazan,6.6,38.8,0,12.6,38.8,2.4,1
Russian_Spassk,4.7142857,39,0,11.8571429,40.8571429,2.8571429,0.5714286
Russian_Tver,5.25,38.5,0,12.25,39,4.25,0
Russian_Vologda,3.25,36.125,0,12.75,40.625,6.75,0.5
Russian_Yaroslavl,2.3333333,38.6666667,0,12.3333333,42,4,0.3333333
Saami.DG,0,25.75,0,12,40,22.25,0
Sardinian,9,67.4,2.6,9.6,10.7,0.3,0.1
Scottish,5.75,44,0,10.5,39.5,0,0
Selkup,0.1,7.6,0,1.4,25.9,64.9,0.2
Selkup_Farkovo,0,5.625,0,0.25,29.75,64.25,0
Selkup_Turukhansk,0,6.3333333,0.6666667,0.3333333,31.1666667,61.5,0
She,0,0,0,0,0,0,100
Shor_Khakassia,3.8333333,8.3333333,0,0.1666667,26.1666667,45.6666667,15.6666667
Shor_Mountain,4.4285714,9,0,0.1428571,26.1428571,43.7142857,16.8571429
Sicilian,22.5,54.125,1.125,4,17.25,0.875,0.625
Spanish,10.7777778,53.2222222,0.8888889,10.4444444,24,0.1111111,0.8888889
Tabasaran,39.3,29.9,0,0,29.6,0.8,0.6
Tajik,36.7142857,20.2857143,0,2.4285714,29.4285714,4,7.2857143
Tajik_Aininsky,34.3,22.3,0,1.4,23.1,7.3,11.4
Tajik_Gissar,33.5,22,0,2,24.5,8,10.5
Tajik_Kulyab,36.1428571,22.2857143,0,0.8571429,25.5714286,5.8571429,9.1428571
Tatar_Irtysh_Barabinsk,6,13.5,0,1.5,23,38.5,17.5
Tatar_Kazan,8.4615385,30.4615385,0,7.1538462,34.2307692,15.0769231,4.8461538
Tatar_Mishar,7.1,33.5,0.1,8.8,34.8,10.5,5
Tatar_Siberian_Tobolsk,7.6,16.6,0,2.6,25.2,34.2,13.8
Tatar_Siberian_Tyumen,8.6666667,17,0,2.3333333,25,31,15.6666667
Tatar_Siberian_Vagaysky,8.6,16.6,0,3,24.6,32.8,14.6
Tatar_Siberian_Yalutorovskiy,7,19.8333333,0,2.8333333,28.5,29,12.6666667
Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye,4,13.2,0,2.4,31.4,43.8,5.2
Tatar_Tomsk,8.5,18,0,5,24,27,18
Tatar_Volga,9.5,31,0,7.5,33.5,12.5,5
Teleut,5.5,10,0,2,17.5,44,21.5
Tlingit,1.75,17.25,0,5,32.25,38.25,5
Todzin,1.3333333,4,0,0,7.6666667,73.6666667,13.3333333
Tofalar,0.6,5.5,0,1.1,9.4,75.3,7.8
Tu,2.5,1.6,0,0.1,2.4,14.3,78.9
Tubalar_Altai,6.2,10.6,0,1.2,24.4,38.8,18.4
Tubalar_Artybash,5.4,9.3,0,0.3,24.6,40.7,19.3
Tujia,0,0,0,0,0,2.125,97.875
Turkish,35.1,42.8,0,1.1,13.6,4.2,3.1
Turkmen,24.375,22.25,0,0.75,17.25,18,16.875
Tuvinian,2.8,5.1,0,0.3,9.8,58.5,23.2
Tuvinian_Erzin,2.8,5.6,0,0,7.8,55,28.8
Udmurt,4.8,23.5,0,5.1,41.4,25,0.2
Ukrainian,5.8333333,40.8333333,0,12.1666667,39.8333333,1.3333333,0.5
Ukrainian_Lviv,7.6666667,42.3333333,0.3333333,11.6666667,36.6666667,1,0.3333333
Ukrainian_North,4.625,41.875,0.25,12.25,39.5,0.625,0.875
Ukrainian_Sumskaya,5.3333333,42,0,12.6666667,39.3333333,0.6666667,0.6666667
Ulchi,0,0,0,0,0,61.7272727,38.2727273
Uyghur,18.6,13.6,0,0.7,15.4,18.4,33.5
Veps,0.4,34.5,0,12.9,42.9,9.4,0.1
Xibo,0.8571429,1.7142857,0,0,0.4285714,26.7142857,70.4285714
Yakut,2.1,4.3,0,0.6,4.3,65.6,23.2
Yi,0,0,0,0,0,9.2222222,90.7777778
Yukagir_Forest,0.2727273,3,0,1,5.9090909,83.9090909,5.7272727
New Hungarian averagesCode:Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core1:KFP-31,0,0,6,0,1,67,26
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:AN-376,0,0,11,0,0,56,33
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:FU-215,0,2,9,0,1,62,26
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:KFP-30a,0,1,10,0,2,54,33
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:MM-245,0,0,9,0,0,61,30
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core1:KFP-7,0,0,8,0,0,62,29
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:CS-465,0,1,5,0,3,58,33
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:FGD-4,0,0,11,0,2,54,32
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:KV-3369,0,2,10,0,1,61,27
Hungary_Late_Avar_Asia_Core2:CSPF-213,0,3,7,0,1,57,31
Hungary_Middle_Avar_Asia_Core2:CSPF-37,0,2,9,0,1,60,28
Hungary_Avar_Early:ACG-19,5,17,7,2,6,41,21
Hungary_Avar_Early:AN-286,0,39,11,15,35,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Early:FU-193,10,40,11,3,20,7,7
Hungary_Avar_Early:HC-168,19,39,11,1,18,9,4
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-61,11,26,10,2,17,21,13
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-80,2,5,10,1,9,42,31
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-83,6,19,10,3,15,27,20
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-131,7,55,15,3,20,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-151,1,3,13,1,9,40,33
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-240,9,26,12,1,22,20,10
Hungary_Avar_Early:MS-43,8,48,14,5,23,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Early:MT-29,4,19,12,1,10,33,21
Hungary_Avar_Early:SSD-17,12,48,10,6,23,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SSD-58,10,54,13,1,21,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZF-181,5,40,10,7,31,4,3
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZF-371,14,45,12,3,16,7,3
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZK-102,14,57,15,0,14,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZK-213,7,27,13,0,6,29,18
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-76,13,29,10,0,20,16,12
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-127,7,22,10,0,14,26,20
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-187,3,6,10,0,12,43,26
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-829,11,44,9,10,27,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZRV-54,11,23,11,1,17,20,17
Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite:DK-701,3,33,10,9,34,8,3
Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite:KFP-6,1,21,8,6,17,31,15
Hungary_Avar_Early_EU_Core3:SZF-43,7,50,11,7,25,0,0
Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle:ALT-77,10,52,10,4,23,0,1
Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle:KPM-14,14,54,14,2,16,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-369,8,44,12,7,24,2,2
Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-412,15,48,12,4,21,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-596,10,48,13,5,23,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-11,12,32,8,4,21,12,10
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-14,6,43,9,7,26,7,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-17,11,29,9,2,17,18,13
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-19,8,12,8,1,15,33,23
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-21,5,23,11,0,16,26,19
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-24,6,13,9,0,15,32,26
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-43,10,42,11,5,24,4,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-49,20,27,5,5,33,7,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-50,6,12,8,0,8,40,25
Hungary_Avar_Late:HH-10,11,50,14,4,19,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:HH-22,10,45,10,7,25,1,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK1-368,14,51,12,2,20,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-441,4,11,13,0,7,43,22
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-445,5,17,11,3,11,33,20
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-670,0,4,12,0,3,54,28
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBH-37,17,43,11,2,15,6,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBH-52,6,49,12,4,29,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBT-51,13,30,10,2,18,16,11
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBT-108,18,50,10,1,17,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-12,10,43,10,5,20,7,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-200,9,42,10,3,22,8,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-205,5,26,11,2,17,23,16
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZK-130,13,48,11,2,24,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-62,13,44,9,6,20,4,4
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-70,11,44,9,5,26,3,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-89,13,47,9,5,19,4,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZM-332,13,50,14,2,15,2,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-67,13,40,12,1,19,8,7
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-168,10,33,10,2,18,15,12
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-266,1,5,11,0,8,44,32
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-277,12,33,10,5,17,10,13
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-316,10,27,9,3,14,19,18
Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-509,3,44,12,9,31,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-798,7,44,9,8,31,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-1273,5,45,11,8,29,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Late:TTSZ-43,2,14,10,0,10,40,24
Hungary_Avar_Late:VPB-31,8,46,12,3,23,2,6
Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite:KV-3450,6,16,8,3,12,34,21
Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite:VPB-307,7,22,10,1,14,29,18
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core1:KK1-251,17,54,12,2,14,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:ALT-414,11,48,13,4,23,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:ARK-38,12,48,12,4,22,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:SZKT-265,12,51,13,3,20,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:SZKT-311,16,48,11,4,20,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core4:OBT-3,8,44,10,10,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:CSPF-182,2,14,9,0,9,42,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KD-16,8,27,9,0,20,20,16
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-188,13,39,11,1,19,10,7
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-517,7,48,10,8,27,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-520,12,38,11,0,19,9,11
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KPM-23,13,46,12,5,18,2,4
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MS-50,9,45,13,8,25,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-17,9,45,13,6,24,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-23,4,20,10,4,16,27,20
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-74,0,6,10,1,3,56,24
Hungary_Avar_Middle:PV-116,9,43,9,7,22,7,3
Hungary_Avar_Middle:PV-125,11,35,12,5,21,9,6
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-35,1,8,12,1,6,49,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-144,10,50,12,3,25,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-151,7,46,13,6,25,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-198,11,54,16,0,19,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-24,5,49,12,7,27,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-38,10,52,12,4,21,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-255,15,54,12,0,15,0,3
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-259,14,49,12,2,18,4,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZRV-147,9,25,9,3,17,21,16
Hungary_Avar_Middle:TMH-756,7,50,13,6,24,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_Elite:KV-3367,5,14,8,0,8,43,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1:ALT-224,11,60,13,0,16,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1:SZK-180,16,54,11,1,18,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core2:HH-102,11,51,10,4,21,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core3:TMH-388,5,46,13,7,28,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core4:KDA-485,5,48,11,9,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:ALT-442,8,48,9,6,28,0,1
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:ARK-41,11,24,11,2,19,21,13
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:JHT-154,16,45,12,2,21,3,1
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KK1-245,22,54,13,0,10,1,0
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KK2-429,4,12,9,1,8,42,26
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KPM-27,13,43,13,3,19,6,4
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate_Elite:KV-3456,0,2,11,1,3,57,27
Hungary_Commoner_Conq_Asia_Core2:SZA-154,5,15,8,3,27,33,10
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:KeF1-10936,2,14,10,0,32,38,4
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:LB-1432,2,14,12,1,34,35,3
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:MH1-23,5,12,9,4,31,38,1
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-4,4,13,7,2,34,38,3
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-6,1,14,12,1,32,36,4
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-7,2,11,9,3,32,40,2
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:TCS-2,5,14,8,2,29,36,5
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:K2-29,8,16,6,2,25,35,9
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:K3-6,7,15,11,2,25,33,6
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:SZAK-1,3,15,12,0,29,36,6
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-5,10,50,13,5,20,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-43,4,43,13,8,29,1,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-50,6,35,9,10,31,7,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-86,15,52,11,3,18,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-88,10,25,11,2,23,20,9
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-157,4,45,11,7,32,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-229,4,46,11,10,28,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-231,9,24,9,2,24,22,8
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-245,6,45,12,10,26,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-154,9,47,8,7,29,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-161,9,46,9,10,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-176,8,47,9,7,28,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-1,7,31,11,6,25,16,5
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-2,4,37,11,8,29,8,3
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-19,7,47,12,6,26,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-20,8,45,9,9,29,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-23,6,44,8,9,31,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-28,4,32,9,6,30,16,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-38,3,43,12,10,30,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-57,10,46,11,8,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-200,6,20,8,4,28,26,8
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-216,8,27,12,3,22,15,13
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-66,7,47,11,10,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-81,8,43,10,5,29,0,4
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-98,5,43,9,11,32,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-106,2,44,11,9,34,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-143,8,31,9,6,25,12,10
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-182,10,46,9,7,26,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-251,4,44,8,7,32,2,4
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-20,6,49,11,9,25,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-29,7,43,8,8,31,3,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-44,11,48,8,8,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-52,8,29,8,5,21,19,10
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-394,12,45,11,7,24,1,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-426,8,31,12,5,25,13,6
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-566,15,23,8,4,18,20,12
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:VPB-561,7,41,9,8,28,5,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:VPB-588,6,49,11,9,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core1:SZOD-376,10,61,14,0,15,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3:PLE-195,6,48,11,7,26,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3:SH-175,10,47,9,6,27,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core4:SZA-7,7,46,10,9,27,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core5:IBE-206,3,42,12,10,31,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-49,8,43,11,9,24,3,3
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-75,0,40,14,10,35,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-87,5,45,12,9,27,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-92,4,9,12,0,9,41,26
Hungary_Conq_Elite:BK-2,8,31,9,8,28,14,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:CSU-11,8,45,8,9,27,2,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-1,10,34,9,5,27,11,3
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-10,4,38,9,10,28,4,5
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-3286,8,15,9,0,12,35,21
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-16,3,26,9,5,25,22,10
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-18,6,32,9,4,24,15,11
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-33,13,49,12,4,21,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-61,4,14,9,1,21,38,12
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K3-12,17,29,10,3,22,9,11
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K3-13,7,28,5,7,30,17,7
Hungary_Conq_Elite:KH-500,11,21,11,2,23,22,11
Hungary_Conq_Elite:KH-596,8,48,11,8,23,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-4,1,21,9,2,33,30,5
Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-9,3,34,13,5,33,9,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-14,7,26,10,8,27,16,6
Hungary_Conq_Elite:NK-2,8,16,7,3,11,38,17
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-16,11,28,8,2,20,20,10
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-23,11,36,8,5,24,8,8
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-114,11,50,10,5,23,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SEO-3,6,26,9,4,23,24,9
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SEO-4,13,17,8,2,20,27,14
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SO-5,7,23,9,3,23,26,9
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-2,9,38,10,8,29,2,4
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-9,9,17,11,1,18,32,12
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-10,6,23,10,1,26,25,9
Hungary_Conq_Elite:TCS-5,9,45,11,7,27,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Elite:VPB-167,2,43,10,10,33,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:VPB-310,8,24,10,3,27,23,6
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core4:TCS-18,11,42,10,10,27,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core5:SE-64,5,42,8,10,31,1,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-90,7,39,11,6,27,6,4
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-106,6,43,10,8,29,2,2
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-107,7,43,12,10,26,2,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-116,9,42,10,9,27,2,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-88,6,46,11,7,29,0,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-106,4,44,12,10,30,0,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-107,4,32,10,4,30,15,4
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-153,6,44,11,8,29,2,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-95,3,33,10,6,30,12,7
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-115,10,30,12,4,24,13,8
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-327,9,30,8,4,27,18,5
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-384,7,37,10,7,29,6,5
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-418,10,31,10,5,26,13,5
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-441,6,40,9,9,29,3,4
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:VPB-118,8,50,11,8,23,0,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian_EU_Core5:VPB-600,5,43,9,11,31,1,1
Hungary_Hun:ASZK-1,10,24,11,4,38,9,5
Hungary_Hun:CSB-3,9,40,13,8,26,1,3
Hungary_Hun:CSB-9,0,33,8,15,43,0,0
Hungary_Hun:KMT-2785,3,24,9,5,24,20,15
Hungary_Hun:MSG-1,0,1,12,0,4,43,40
Hungary_Hun:SEI-5,9,40,11,8,29,2,0
Hungary_Hun:SEI-6,4,46,12,5,31,0,1
Hungary_Hun:SZLA-646,3,40,11,11,36,0,0
Hungary_Hun:VZ-12673,2,2,9,0,10,40,37
Hungary_Starcevo_EN:ANY-4027,2,76,19,1,1,1,0
Hungary_Tisza_LN:HGO-26,2,71,17,8,0,1,0
Hungary_Tisza_LN:VM-33,2,72,17,5,2,2,0
Code:Hungary_Avar_Early,8.2173913,31.7826087,11.2608696,2.8695652,17.6086957,16.9130435,11.3478261
Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite,2,27,9,7.5,25.5,19.5,9
Hungary_Avar_Early_EU_Core3,7,50,11,7,25,0,0
Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle,12,53,12,3,19.5,0,0.5
Hungary_Avar_Late,9.325,34.95,10.475,3.35,19.25,13.2,9.425
Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite,6.5,19,9,2,13,31.5,19.5
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core1,17,54,12,2,14,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2,12.75,48.75,12.25,3.75,21.25,1,0.5
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core4,8,44,10,10,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle,8.4545455,38.3181818,11.4545455,3.5,19.0909091,11.7727273,7.4090909
Hungary_Avar_Middle_Elite,5,14,8,0,8,43,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1,13.5,57,12,0.5,17,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core2,11,51,10,4,21,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core3,5,46,13,7,28,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core4,5,48,11,9,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate,12.3333333,37.6666667,11.1666667,2.3333333,17.5,12.1666667,7.5
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate_Elite,0,2,11,1,3,57,27
Hungary_Commoner_Conq_Asia_Core2,5,15,8,3,27,33,10
Hungary_Conq_Commoner,7.3947368,40.3421053,10.0526316,7.0526316,26.5263158,5.4473684,3.1315789
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core1,10,61,14,0,15,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3,8,47.5,10,6.5,26.5,0,0.5
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core4,7,46,10,9,27,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core5,3,42,12,10,31,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite,7.4242424,30.7272727,9.7575758,4.9393939,24.3333333,15.5757576,7.2727273
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core4,11,42,10,10,27,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core5,5,42,8,10,31,1,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian,6.8,38.9333333,10.4666667,7,27.6666667,6.2666667,3.0666667
Hungary_Early_Arpadian_EU_Core5,5,43,9,11,31,1,1
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core1,0,0,6,0,1,67,26
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,0.75,9.75,0,0.75,58.25,30.5
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core1,0,0,8,0,0,62,29
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,1,8.6666667,0,2,57.6666667,30.6666667
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1,3,13.1428571,9.5714286,1.8571429,32,37.2857143,3.1428571
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2,6,15.3333333,9.6666667,1.3333333,26.3333333,34.6666667,7
Hungary_Hun,4.4444444,27.7777778,10.6666667,6.2222222,26.7777778,12.7777778,11.2222222
Hungary_Late_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,3,7,0,1,57,31
Hungary_Middle_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,2,9,0,1,60,28
Hungary_Starcevo_EN,2,76,19,1,1,1,0
Hungary_Tisza_LN,2,71.5,17,6.5,1,1.5,0
Very wonderful thread,
This genetic result analized mostly the commoners (hungarus), 2/5 of them had uralic paternal origin:Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/fokozato...es_CsanyiB.pdf
Their mtda is 95% european, check the "köznépi":
https://m.nyest.hu/media/a-honfoglal...tjai.jpg?large
The hungarus spoked the modern hungarian language for sure because they used hungarian names, topography. The real question is were the conquerors uralic speaker or not.
Do we know though precisely the haplogroups of Mansi around the similar time frame of the conquest in Pannonia? Perhaps they were not identical to what they are now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turul Karom
A population high in Uralic ancestry would be the easiest explanation for Hungarian being Uralic. In that case it wouldn't even matter what language the conquerors spoke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondie
The problem with this is that modern Hungarians have almost no Uralic haplogroups (1% or less). When did that ancestry disappeared?
Probably not indeed, but then are they (the Mansi of today) the "Mansi?" The entire point of haplogroups is an attempt to trace a map back through history using Y-DNA as a route of migration. Shouting only about N while ignoring R1 dominance (and the presence of other Y haplos) is hypocritical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy
Imagine saying that "the strong presence of N indicates a core of Mansi-related population" when the majority of the haplogroups matches Turkic graves (including the Y haplogroup of the founding Hungarian royal dynasty). They might then claim that," oh, the N haplos were the elite." An N elite with an R1 dynasty and the presence of I2 chieftains? LOL ok.
Also, there are far more % N haplos in Avar graves (who are called Turkic peoples), so are they actually Uralic Mansi graves? Hell, there were just as many Conquer Hungarian R1b graves alone as there were N graves in total.
The false narrative unravels in real time as the science continues to reveal the truth. People will always scratch their heads like idiots when trying to makes sense of Hungarian origins if they consistently leave out the Turkic genetic element in favor of only Khanty-Mansi elements or eventually conclude that Hungarians must have been replaced entirely. Never mind that Hungarians (including myself and many other Hungarian users on TA) match conqueror-era graves via shared Turkic genetics. On my full genome sequencing, I have Kyrgyz, Uyghur, Turk, Chuvash, etc. genetics together in one result without any recent "new to the village" Turkic member in my family tree that I can find, and I do extensive genealogy research on it. Did an Uyghur take a plane into Hungary in 1600? Where do all of these eastern steppe genetics come from in modern Hungarians?
It's a giant game of "hear no Turkic, see no Turkic" and covering one's eyes for some people, but thankfully, as the last decade of science has shown, this little game is coming to an end.
You are a perfect example of my above point. It has higher Turkic ancestry in both cultural and haplogroup representation. Hungarians were called by Muslim and Byzantine sources as bilingual. Ruling dynasty was R1a-Z93. Unless you are about to say that the Osman house has Mansi origins because R1a-Z93 must be a Mansi haplo..Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
Something like this?:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
Code:Conq_Asia_Core1,0.0903918,-0.089627825,0.072459725,0.056927575,-0.05235135,-0.003471125,0.00654995,0.008327825,-0.012962475,-0.033216325,0.021264875,-0.00303635,0.009488275,-0.045079225,-0.001402425,-0.0022226,-0.005138975,-0.000214875,-0.003750725,-0.005824725,-0.0064155,0.01347725,0.007512,-0.0007943,-0.004634675
Spoiler!