R1a haplogroup may have originated in Iran

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/03...gins-of-y.html

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Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence.54, 60 However, our data do not enable us to directly ascribe the patterns of R1a geographic spread to specific prehistoric cultures or more recent demographic events. High-throughput sequencing studies of more R1a lineages will lead to further insight into the structure of the underlying tree, and ancient DNA specimens will help adjudicate the molecular clock calibration. Together these advancements will yield more refined inferences about pre-historic dispersals of peoples, their material cultures, and languages.

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Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in our data set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2*(xM417/Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus. Owing to the prevalence of basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a.

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I am not surprised in some ways, but am surprised in others. R1a origin in Iran is not too shocking to me, they are basically scythians really. Some people might get butthurt at the obvious proof middle east is originally a super whitey zone, but what else is new.

The super young age seems crazy, though. I mean we already have r1a samples pretty far back, but whatever - these issues will be resolved in time with more sampling, I guess. I don't really buy into moleculat clock idea, but it could be that many y-dna mutations are NOT neutral and selection could lead to very rapid promulgation of them.

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R1a haplogroup may have originated in Iran

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Originally Posted by Melonhead

Some people might get butthurt at the obvious proof middle east is originally a super whitey zone

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What is the context between the two statements? :)

Interesting.

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Originally Posted by blogen

What is the context between the two statements? :)

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It's obviously a very white "european" clade. If it centered in iran it says a lot about more than just Iran. If you deny that you are hopelessly biased.

If you look at haplomap of r1a, it almost has to have middle east origin if current spread has anything to do with the past. If that's truly the case then it says volumes about origin of r1b, as well.

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Originally Posted by Melonhead

It's obviously a very white "european" clade.

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The absolute majority of the R1a carriers are very swarthy South Asians. And great part of the R1a carriers are swarthy* Europids and Europo-Mongoloids. Only a small minority between the R1a carriers are white.

*Swarthy = Not blond, whites = blondes!

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If it centered in iran it says a lot about more than just Iran. If you deny that you are hopelessly biased.

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The paternal and maternal lineages not connect to the physical character and many changes happened since its spread. Mixation with light color complexed peoples or depigmentation of the neolithic R1a newcomers and their descendants in the temperate latitudes, etc. The human colours change quickly.

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If you look at haplomap of r1a, it almost has to have middle east origin if current spread has anything to do with the past. If that's truly the case then it says volumes about origin of r1b, as well.

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Yes, the R1a and b were Middle Eastern origin. This is not new.

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Originally Posted by blogen

The absolute majority of the R1a carriers are very swarthy South Asians. And great part of the R1a carriers are swarthy* Europids and Europo-Mongoloids. Only a small minority between the R1a carriers are white.

*Swarthy = Not blond, whites = blondes!



The paternal and maternal lineages not connect to the physical character and many changes happened since its spread. Mixation with light color complexed peoples or depigmentation of the neolithic R1a newcomers and their descendants in the temperate latitudes, etc. The human colours change quickly.


Like I said, you bias shows. I don't care much about r1a to be honest, but still it's interesting, mainly because of ashkenazi jews with r1a ancestry and the alleged young date for its expansion.



Yes, the R1a and b were Middle Eastern origin. This is not new.

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1. It's very doubtful they both originate in middle east, and uncertain either one really does. R* was clearly all over eurasia long before they formed so you could choose almost any spot as a possible origin point, especially for r1b which only has 1 sample.

2. All the ancient sources of r1a show very white genetics, and there's a lot of them.

3. The dark r1a is surrounded by a sea of darker dna, which is only reason it's dark, and only reason for a cast system.

4. It's impossible to whiten up by mixing with a white population, and still maintain super high levels of the same y-dna. Even in 'elite dominance' the best you could hope for is a 50/50 mix so this is plainly impossible.

And you forgot this, they were the R1a carriers:

"Our analysis indicates that positive selection on pigmentation variants associated with depigmented hair, skin, and eyes was still ongoing after the time period represented by our archaeological population, 6,500–4,000 y ago. This finding suggests that either the selection pressures that initiated the selective sweep during the Late Pleistocene or early Holocene were still operative or that a new selective environment had arisen in which depigmentation was favored for a different reason."
"In sum, a combination of selective pressures associated with living in northern latitudes, the adoption of an agriculturalist diet, and assortative mating may sufficiently explain the observed change from a darker phenotype during the Eneolithic/Early Bronze age to a generally lighter one in modern Eastern Europeans, although other selective factors cannot be discounted. The selection coefficients inferred directly from serially sampled data at these pigmentation loci range from 2 to 10% and are among the strongest signals of recent selection in humans."
Direct evidence for positive selection of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation in Europeans during the last 5,000 y

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Originally Posted by blogen

And you forgot this, they were the R1a carriers:

"Our analysis indicates that positive selection on pigmentation variants associated with depigmented hair, skin, and eyes was still ongoing after the time period represented by our archaeological population, 6,500–4,000 y ago. This finding suggests that either the selection pressures that initiated the selective sweep during the Late Pleistocene or early Holocene were still operative or that a new selective environment had arisen in which depigmentation was favored for a different reason."
"In sum, a combination of selective pressures associated with living in northern latitudes, the adoption of an agriculturalist diet, and assortative mating may sufficiently explain the observed change from a darker phenotype during the Eneolithic/Early Bronze age to a generally lighter one in modern Eastern Europeans, although other selective factors cannot be discounted. The selection coefficients inferred directly from serially sampled data at these pigmentation loci range from 2 to 10% and are among the strongest signals of recent selection in humans."
Direct evidence for positive selection of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation in Europeans during the last 5,000 y

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They are talking about europe as a whole and imply that the light skin genes came from the r1a folk. I doubt that is the case. The people in andronovo were mixed with people further east. Malta boy had the gene for freckles, too. He seemed like some mix that is not a direct ancestor of people today, but I am sure that r1a and r1b were both light by the time they split from r*. The numbers that they gave for selection would have been way too high for plausibility - we know of genes being selected and it goes fairly quick but that's like ten times as fast as is plausible.

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Originally Posted by Melonhead

They are talking about europe as a whole and imply that the light skin genes came from the r1a folk. I doubt that is the case. The people in andronovo were mixed with people further east. Malta boy had the gene for freckles, too. He seemed like some mix that is not a direct ancestor of people today, but I am sure that r1a and r1b were both light by the time they split from r*. The numbers that they gave for selection would have been way too high for plausibility - we know of genes being selected and it goes fairly quick but that's like ten times as fast as is plausible.

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But this is the reality. This is one of the surprising scientific discoveries of the past years (it was discovered because of illnesses and allergies mostly), that the selection is so quick. The beneficial mutations spread under some thousand years. And this fact solve lot of problem in the racial history, for example the origin of the Northern Eurasian paleness. There was a disturbing difference between the archaeological finds and the contemporary populations. The contemporary Northern European population's considerable part does not have a racial ancestor in the Mesolithic. Only the Cromagnoids and the Lapponoids (and extint Veddoid elements of the Sungir population, they were Mesolithic migrants from the deep South) lived in Europe in the Mesolithic times. The velocity of the selection solves this problem, the other light color complexed European races were neolithic or later migrants and they were depigmented in the past millenia.

The original R1a and b carriers were swarthy than everybody else in the Middle East and South Asia. But later some of them changed in Europe.

They are not saying R1a is 5800 years old. They are saying R1a1a1 is 5800 years old. That's pretty believable I think, because it really starts to branch off a lot shortly after, from what we can all likely guess is Indo-European expansion.