All things considered, is Scotland closer to the Irish or other British?

Scotland and Scots, are they closer to the Irish or other Britons? I am talking here on a deep historical level rather than just modern day Scotland.

We have to consider that the name "Scotland" comes from the Latin term for Irish (Scotti), the Gaelic Dal Riata formed the basis of a unified Scotland, the Declaration of Arbroath maintained a Gaelic identity of the nation, and most of the various symbols and images associated with Scotland (Romanticized or otherwise) such as tartan, kilts, bagpipe, the clan system, etc. are of Gaelic provenance. Even prior to the formation of Scotland, I believe it has been noted that Western Scotland especially has always been closer to Northern Ireland in terms of cultural or archaeological trends than it was with Britain further South. Gaelic was also the only language to be nearly pan-Scottish until the complete dominance of English in the 19th century.

Yet on the other hand, Scotland is part of Britain. It shares in the recent heritage of the United Kingdom, which was indeed united under a Scottish dynasty (the Stewarts.)

How about phenotypically? It seems here too that the Scottish redhead stereotype is also an Irish stereotype.

Depends who you ask in Scotland. Some hate Britain & some hate Ireland. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Scotland and Scots, are they closer to the Irish or other Britons? I am talking here on a deep historical level rather than just modern day Scotland.

We have to consider that the name "Scotland" comes from the Latin term for Irish (Scotti)

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

the Gaelic Dal Riata formed the basis of a unified Scotland

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The house of Alpin were the king of Picts and then king of Scots & Picts with Kenneth Macalpin. The unified Alba is then mentioned under Constantine, son of Áed.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

, the Declaration of Arbroath maintained a Gaelic identity of the nation, and most of the various symbols and images associated with Scotland (Romanticized or otherwise) such as tartan, kilts, bagpipe, the clan system, etc. are of Gaelic provenance.

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The Declaration of Arboath was written for the pope to stop England trying to annex Scotland and recognise our independence at that time and for the future. It is written to impress.

Tartan is probably pre dal Riada as tartan was found here early, bagpipes seem to be found all over Europe, I could be wrong but havent saw the Irish as wearing the great Kilts. Our old national instrument was the celtic harp/clarsach like Ireland and the music culture is very similar.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Even prior to the formation of Scotland, I believe it has been noted that Western Scotland especially has always been closer to Northern Ireland in terms of cultural or archaeological trends than it was with Britain further South. Gaelic was also the only language to be nearly pan-Scottish until the complete dominance of English in the 19th century.

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Boats were the fastest way of transport in the past, so Ireland was as easy to get to as anywhere, its plausible. The Bruces also wanted an allied Ireland-Scoland Gaelic culture in the 13th century with Scots crossing into ireland to battle the English in Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Yet on the other hand, Scotland is part of Britain. It shares in the recent heritage of the United Kingdom, which was indeed united under a Scottish dynasty (the Stewarts.)

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Royal families married throughout Europe, Stewarts married with the English and French. The English royal line died and the Stewarts claimed a bloodline to England.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

How about phenotypically? It seems here too that the Scottish redhead stereotype is also an Irish stereotype.

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Irish, Scots & English phenotypically overlap. Scots and Irish are fairer Skinned on average, Irish have lots of blue eyes, English have more blondes. The difference isnt that much.

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Originally Posted by Graham

Depends who you ask in Scotland. Some hate Britain & some hate Ireland. :cool:

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I imagine much of the Irish hate would have to do with the religious and political differences of more recent centuries. Or because of Celtic F.C. hehe.

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Originally Posted by Graham

The house of Alpin were the king of Picts and then king of Scots & Picts with Kenneth Macalpin. The unified Alba is then mentioned under Constantine, son of Áed.

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Yeah but despite the shadowy origins of Kenneth MacAlpin, the house itself traced their lineage to the Dal Riata. I believe some of the royal disputes in early medieval Alba (such as MacBeth) were due to competing claims by different Dal Riatan kingroups.

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Originally Posted by Graham

The Declaration of Arboath was written for the pope to stop England trying to annex Scotland and recognise our independence at that time and for the future. It is written to impress.

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But also likely reflected a true sense of Scottish identity of the time, since Bruce reemphasized that in his letter to the Irish chiefs emphasizing their common blood and nationhood. I believe it was also said that David I's army at the Battle of the Standard, despite diverse origins (Norman, Cumbrian, Anglian, etc.) went into battle with a traditional Scottic/Gaelic battle cry (Albannach!) Then of course you have the medieval Scottish Church's connection with the Columban Church, such as Columba's relics being apparently carried into battle at Bannockburn.

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Originally Posted by Graham

Tartan is probably pre dal Riada as tartan was found here early, bagpipes seem to be found all over Europe, I could be wrong but havent saw the Irish as wearing the great Kilts. Our old national instrument was the celtic harp/clarsach like Ireland and the music culture is very similar.

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Of course. I suppose my point was in the popular imagination (due to the influence of guys like Walter Scott) the symbols of Scotland and Scottishness are more associated with the Gael than with later Anglian Lowland culture, which I suppose makes sense since you need something to differentiate Scotland from England aside from the Presbyterian Kirk or different law codes.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

All things considered, is Scotland closer to the Irish or other British?Re

Scotland and Scots, are they closer to the Irish or other Britons? I am talking here on a deep historical level rather than just modern day Scotland.

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In a way, both & neither.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

The Gaelic Dal Riata formed the basis of a unified Scotland

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Scottish "Gaelic" Dal Riata had Norse tradin' posts & Norse-Gaels.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

the Declaration of Arbroath maintained a Gaelic identity of the nation...
But also likely reflected a true sense of Scottish identity of the time, since Bruce reemphasized that in his letter to the Irish chiefs emphasizing their common blood and nationhood.

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Majority of names, includin de Bruce/Brus, are Norse, Norman or Saxon on the Declaration. Look them up.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

and most of the various symbols and images associated with Scotland (Romanticized or otherwise) such as tartan, kilts, bagpipe, the clan system, etc. are of Gaelic provenance.

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Bagpipes found world over. Ancient tartans found Austria, Scandinavia, etc. Clans exist elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

It shares in the recent heritage of the United Kingdom, which was indeed united under a Scottish dynasty (the Stewarts.)

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Was Scotland a separate island prior or somethin'?

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Of course. I suppose my point was in the popular imagination (due to the influence of guys like Walter Scott) the symbols of Scotland and Scottishness are more associated with the Gael than with later Anglian Lowland culture

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Says who? Americans?

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Gaelic was also the only language to be nearly pan-Scottish until the complete dominance of English in the 19th century.

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So Pictish was imaginary?

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

I imagine much of the Irish hate would have to do with the religious and political differences of more recent centuries. Or because of Celtic F.C. hehe.

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Good thing yur not Irish then.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Yeah but despite the shadowy origins of Kenneth MacAlpin, the house itself traced their lineage to the Dal Riata. I believe some of the royal disputes in early medieval Alba (such as MacBeth) were due to competing claims by different Dal Riatan kingroups.

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The Book of Ballymote & Lecan implies the Irish clan of Alpin descends from Kenneth. If Kenneth was of Dal Riata descendant has never been proven. Besides there are Irish clans of probable Pictish root. The Cruthin families are not Irish.

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Originally Posted by Graham

Depends who you ask in Scotland. Some hate Britain & some hate Ireland. :cool:

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:p It's cause we're the better lookin' ones, right?

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Originally Posted by Graham

I could be wrong but havent saw the Irish as wearing the great Kilts.

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We don't. Lein-croich (modern saffron kilts); pre 16th century Scots' kilts apparently. Scottish tartans are family & ours not quite.

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Originally Posted by Graham

Our old national instrument was the celtic harp/clarsach like Ireland and the music culture is very similar.

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vs Cláirseach

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Scottish "Gaelic" Dal Riata had Norse tradin' posts & Norse-Gaels.

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I am talking about the origin of the dynasty which laid the foundations of a unified Alba. It traced its lineage to Fergus Mor mac Eirc and the gradual Gaelicization of the Picts was underway before the Norse settlement, which despite their elite dominance was more sparse in the Inner Hebrides compared to say Orkney.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Majority of names, includin de Bruce/Brus, are Norse, Norman or Saxon on the Declaration. Look them up.

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Indeed. I am talking about how Arbroath described the national identity. The document describes the history of the Scots and discusses them vanquishing perceived foreign peoples which included the Picts. But yes by the 14th century there was a replacement of the Gaelic elite by Normans in much of the Lowlands.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Bagpipes found world over. Ancient tartans found Austria, Scandinavia, etc. Clans exist elsewhere.

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That's true but I am specifically talking about how the Great Highland Bagpipes and Scottish Gaelic tartan are popular images of Scotland.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Was Scotland a separate island prior or somethin'?

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Separate kingdom. Until the Union of the Crowns and even thereafter among a portion of Scots there was a strong animosity toward England, the "Auld Enemy." Though amusingly enough thanks to Ptolmey's geography it was often perceived of as a separate island in the Middle Ages.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Says who? Americans?

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The Romanticism of Scott also influenced Scotland's own image of itself, especially in the 19th century, hence all of the Clan societies and creation of many clan tartans, crests, etc. Chinese I've talked to when asked about Scots tend to mention Braveheart, kilts, bagpipes, and gingers. Here's a Scotsman who declares as much: (35s in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUkt4k9aKdQ

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Originally Posted by Traveler

So Pictish was imaginary?

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Pictish is still debated as to its precise linguistic definition and how it differed from the Cumbric/Welsh/Brythonic further south and it remains uncertain whether it was spread across the whole of Scotland prior to the more historical period. The Britons/Welsh do claim that Old British was spoken across the whole island so it may be so, but by the time a differentiated Pictish forms, there is Gaelic in the West and English in the Southeast. Gaelic became the lingua franca across most of Scotland outside of the Norse areas of the extreme North/Orkney/Shetland and the Outer Hebrides and English in the very Southeast corner. This would only be achieved again by another language with English in the 19th century as noted.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

The Book of Ballymote & Lecan implies the Irish clan of Alpin descends from Kenneth. If Kenneth was of Dal Riata descendant has never been proven. Besides there are Irish clans of probable Pictish root. The Cruthin families are not Irish.

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Yes, which is why I mentioned his origins are shadowy but this was the claim. Whatever the case it was a Gaelic dynasty or was so by the time of Kenneth.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

:p It's cause we're the better lookin' ones, right?

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Always get myself a Daniel O'Donnell calender, so I do. So charming. :love0033:

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

I imagine much of the Irish hate would have to do with the religious and political differences of more recent centuries. Or because of Celtic F.C. hehe.

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I dont really like it. Love Ireland and Donegal is one of my favourite places have been. But prefer the actual Irish in Ireland.

I dont even want to get started on Rangers politics and the Orange Lodge. Not a fan.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Of course. I suppose my point was in the popular imagination (due to the influence of guys like Walter Scott) the symbols of Scotland and Scottishness are more associated with the Gael than with later Anglian Lowland culture, which I suppose makes sense since you need something to differentiate Scotland from England aside from the Presbyterian Kirk or different law codes.

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In the 19th century as Scotlands population shifted to the central belt from the North, the culture became a mix of lowland and highland. For example the most celebrated cultural icon of Scotland, where we celebrate all things Scotland is Rabbie Burns Night. He was a Poet who wrote in Scots and even in Hogmanay, Auld lang syne comes from our celebrations.

I think there was a sense that Britain was diluting the culture after a hundred years of union, and without our indepdendent culture Great Britain would not have lasted for as long. Walter Scott was a Unionist and a clever man who understood that and the reason why King George IV came to Scotland in a kilt. Some Scots were starting to become disillusioned, as the link showed. So something had to be done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_War

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

I am talking about the origin of the dynasty which laid the foundations of a unified Alba.

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Did you not read what Graham said?

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

It traced its lineage to Fergus Mor mac Eirc and the gradual Gaelicization of the Picts was underway before the Norse settlement, which despite their elite dominance was more sparse in the Inner Hebrides compared to say Orkney.

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I'm sure the "Celtic" Scottish clan from Dumfries thought the same. Too bad the Y-DNA is Norse.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Indeed. I am talking about how Arbroath described the national identity. The document describes the history of the Scots and discusses them vanquishing perceived foreign peoples which included the Picts. But yes by the 14th century there was a replacement of the Gaelic elite by Normans in much of the Lowlands.

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Didn't Graham make what the Arbroath was clear enough?

And, again, the names who signed it were Norse, Norman & Saxon.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

That's true but I am specifically talking about how the Great Highland Bagpipes and Scottish Gaelic tartan are popular images of Scotland.

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Which you know little of. The Scottish Tartans, there's an ancient Lowlands one compared to ancient tartans in Germany at least. Jutland too I think.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Separate kingdom. Until the Union of the Crowns and even thereafter among a portion of Scots there was a strong animosity toward England, the "Auld Enemy." Though amusingly enough thanks to Ptolmey's geography it was often perceived of as a separate island in the Middle Ages.

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So? People weren't feeble 1 legged, 1 armed, half blind beggars that can't travel.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

The Romanticism of Scott also influenced Scotland's own image of itself, especially in the 19th century, hence all of the Clan societies and creation of many clan tartans, crests, etc. Chinese I've talked to when asked about Scots tend to mention Braveheart, kilts, bagpipes, and gingers. Here's a Scotsman who declares as much: (35s in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUkt4k9aKdQ

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The crests & tartans are older than 19th century.

As for Chinese. Why not ask an Arab about Native Americans? Ridiculous comment.

Btw, if you don't know, Cambridgeshire is not in Scotland and Kerr is, in many ways, just as much an English name as a Scottish one nowadays. Find a real Scotsman & see if they say the same. Braveheart itself was a shoddy movie with a gobshite director.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Pictish is still debated as to its precise linguistic definition and how it differed from the Cumbric/Welsh/Brythonic further south and it remains uncertain whether it was spread across the whole of Scotland prior to the more historical period. The Britons/Welsh do claim that Old British was spoken across the whole island so it may be so, but by the time a differentiated Pictish forms, there is Gaelic in the West and English in the Southeast. Gaelic became the lingua franca across most of Scotland outside of the Norse areas of the extreme North/Orkney/Shetland and the Outer Hebrides and English in the very Southeast corner. This would only be achieved again by another language with English in the 19th century as noted.

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ROFL. Wikipedia knowledge. Read an actual linguistic book.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Yes, which is why I mentioned his origins are shadowy but this was the claim. Whatever the case it was a Gaelic dynasty or was so by the time of Kenneth.

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No. It wasn't. I told you the legit claim.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Did you not read what Graham said?

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I did and it does not contradict what I am saying, which is that Kenneth's dynasty was Gaelic in origin (or claimed to be) and traced its lineage to the Dal Riatan kings. The Angevins were Frenchman and traced their lineage to Anjou despite being Kings of England.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

I'm sure the "Celtic" Scottish clan from Dumfries thought the same. Too bad the Y-DNA is Norse.

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The Dal Riata proper preceded Norse colonization and it moved eastward in the face of Viking occupation of their historic homeland in the Western Isles, which is part of the overall process of why the Dal Riatic Scots and Picts fused.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Didn't Graham make what the Arbroath was clear enough?

And, again, the names who signed it were Norse, Norman & Saxon.

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Most of the Normans inherited previous Gaelic dynasties through intermarriage, so even their fiefdoms had previously Gaelic dynastic origins. There was a reason Alexander III, the king just previous to the period of Balliol and Bruce, had his Ollamh recite his lineage back to Dal Riata. Beyond Arbroath Bruce refers to the Irish in his letter to them as nostra nacio or "our nation", implying a sense of common nationhood with the Gaelic Irish. It seems the Irish of an earlier period felt similar since there are many references in documents to "fir Eireann agus Alban."

If you are interested in a more in depth exploration of the topic, look into this work but be warned it is very dry:

https://boydellandbrewer.com/the-iri...turies-hb.html

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Which you know little of. The Scottish Tartans, there's an ancient Lowlands one compared to ancient tartans in Germany at least. Jutland too I think.

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Yea but I never claimed tartans and bagpipes= Scotland. I claimed that Scottish tartans and the Great Highland Bagpipes, which are more strongly associated with early modern Highland Scottish (Gaelic) culture, have become emblems or popular images of Scotland.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Btw, if you don't know, Cambridgeshire is not in Scotland and Kerr is, in many ways, just as much an English name as a Scottish one nowadays. Find a real Scotsman & see if they say the same. Braveheart itself was a shoddy movie with a gobshite director.

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I don't like Braveheart either and I am not saying that modern Gaels of Scotland promote a stereotyped image of themselves. What I am saying is that, thanks to Scottish Romanticism, Highland images such as tartan and the GHB are popular icons of Scotland. A brief Google search of "Scotland" or "Scottish people" or "traditional Scotland" will reveal as much.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

No. It wasn't. I told you the legit claim.

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Here's the reality: Kenneth McAlpin claimed descent from the Dal Riata. Whether it was true or not is debated, but that was how the kings of Alba perceived their lineage. What is absolutely certain is that ethno-linguistically, Kenneth's dynasty was Gaelic.

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Originally Posted by Graham

I dont really like it. Love Ireland and Donegal is one of my favourite places have been. But prefer the actual Irish in Ireland.

I dont even want to get started on Rangers politics and the Orange Lodge. Not a fan.

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Yeah the modern squabbles between Protestant Scot and Catholic Irish don't really interest me either since I am not an adherent. I am more concerned with ancient or deep roots.

That said I can't help but be a bit biased toward Gaelic Scotland historically and feel positive about amicable relations between Scot and Irish due to my own ancestry, namely a Scottish paternal lineage but a mother who is 80%+ descended of Irish Gaels. In other words I am a fan of figures like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_Mac_Colla

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

I did and it does not contradict what I am saying, which is that Kenneth's dynasty was Gaelic in origin (or claimed to be) and traced its lineage to the Dal Riatan kings. The Angevins were Frenchman and traced their lineage to Anjou despite being Kings of England.

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Shite. Kenneth's origins are NOT GAELIC. They have NEVER BEEN confirmed as Gaelic.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

The Dal Riata proper preceded Norse colonization and it moved eastward in the face of Viking occupation of their historic homeland in the Western Isles, which is part of the overall process of why the Dal Riatic Scots and Picts fused.

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ROFL. You're not getting it, are you? I thought I'd make it simple with mention of Norse. Get your mind thinking.

But now I'll be blunt. Dal Riata itself was NOT solely Gaelic. It also included Picts & other Britons who went over to Ireland, I mentioned them prior > the Cruthin families. Learn something of history that goes beyond wikipedia pages.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Most of the Normans inherited previous Gaelic dynasties through intermarriage, so even their fiefdoms had previously Gaelic dynastic origins. There was a reason Alexander III, the king just previous to the period of Balliol and Bruce, had his Ollamh recite his lineage back to Dal Riata. Beyond Arbroath Bruce refers to the Irish in his letter to them as nostra nacio or "our nation", implying a sense of common nationhood with the Gaelic Irish. It seems the Irish of an earlier period felt similar since there are many references in documents to "fir Eireann agus Alban."

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Not all. Robert de Bruce, for example, as you yipped about him originally was straight Norman.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

If you are interested in a more in depth exploration of the topic, look into this work but be warned it is very dry:

https://boydellandbrewer.com/the-iri...turies-hb.html

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Unlike you, I am Irish. I am Celtic. My haplogroup, after all, is Isle specific. My family is an old Irish clan; one that subclans settled in Scotland 9th & 10th century. I don't need a basic summary, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Yea but I never claimed tartans and bagpipes= Scotland. I claimed that Scottish tartans and the Great Highland Bagpipes, which are more strongly associated with early modern Highland Scottish (Gaelic) culture, have become emblems or popular images of Scotland.

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To the ignorant maybe. There is more to Scotland & Scottish people than that. It's like saying all America is known for is hippies & drug cartel.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

I don't like Braveheart either and I am not saying that modern Gaels of Scotland promote a stereotyped image of themselves. What I am saying is that, thanks to Scottish Romanticism, Highland images such as tartan and the GHB are popular icons of Scotland. A brief Google search of "Scotland" or "Scottish people" or "traditional Scotland" will reveal as much.

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Again to the ignorant maybe.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Here's the reality: Kenneth McAlpin claimed descent from the Dal Riata. Whether it was true or not is debated, but that was how the kings of Alba perceived their lineage. What is absolutely certain is that ethno-linguistically, Kenneth's dynasty was Gaelic.

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If you have some MAGICAL make belief proof that he was Gaelic SHARE IT.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Shite. Kenneth's origins are NOT GAELIC. They have NEVER BEEN confirmed as Gaelic.

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It was the claim of the dynasty, it was how the dynasty perceived itself, and it was the linguistic and cultural affiliation of the dynasty. The name "Scotland" wasn't applied to the new Kingdom of Alba without reason, it was because in the earlier pre-Norman period the majority language and culture as well as that of the monarchy was Gaelic.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

ROFL. You're not getting it, are you? I thought I'd make it simple with mention of Norse. Get your mind thinking.

But now I'll be blunt. Dal Riata itself was NOT solely Gaelic. It also included Picts & other Britons who went over to Ireland, I mentioned them prior > the Cruthin families. Learn something of history that goes beyond wikipedia pages.

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Of course and the Gaels of Ireland weren't uniformly from one single people, they also to some degree assimilated pre-Celtic inhabitants as well as potentially other non-Gaelic Celts, possibly such as the Cruthin you mentioned. That doesn't make them any less of Gaels. The Picts and Britons were related insular Celtic peoples who were assimilated into the Scotic, i.e. Gaelic, nation.

That said there are some modern authorities in archaeology and other fields who question the idea that Argyll and the Inner Hebrides only became Gaelicized with the coming of the Dal Riata from Antrim. Some believe this area was part of the Irish/Gaelic orbit since prehistory, which perhaps is confirmed by references by the Romans of Picti and Scoti working together centuries before Fergus Mor.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Not all. Robert de Bruce, for example, as you yipped about him originally was straight Norman.

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I was talking about the fiefdoms held by Normans by Bruces time...most of them were originally held by Gaelic dynasties that died out and were inherited by Normans. That said Bruce's mother's family was Gaelic.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Unlike you, I am Irish. I am Celtic. My haplogroup, after all, is Isle specific. My family is an old Irish clan; one that subclans settled in Scotland 9th & 10th century. I don't need a basic summary, thanks.

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Yea and by ancestry I am also Celtic, both Scottish (father) and Irish (mother). Being something doesn't necessarily indicate familiarity...a Frenchman who gets a PhD in Chinese history might well know more than some random Chinese farmer on the topic.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

If you have some MAGICAL make belief proof that he was Gaelic SHARE IT.

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He spoke Gaelic, claimed descent from Dal Riata, and was buried in Iona, traditional burial location of Dal Riatan kings and center of the Gaelic Columban Church. If his ancestry was once Pictish, which isn't known, by the time of his ascension he was a Gael by culture, language, and identity, or at least this was the case among his successors since it must be admitted that Kenneth MacAlpin is a shadowy figure.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

It was the claim of the dynasty, it was how the dynasty perceived itself, and it was the linguistic and cultural affiliation of the dynasty. The name "Scotland" wasn't applied to the new Kingdom of Alba without reason, it was because in the earlier pre-Norman period the majority language and culture as well as that of the monarchy was Gaelic.

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Christ. Kenneth is NOT Aodh. It is NOT real Gaelic. Understand yet?

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Of course and the Gaels of Ireland weren't uniformly from one single people, they also to some degree assimilated pre-Celtic inhabitants as well as potentially other non-Gaelic Celts, possibly such as the Cruthin you mentioned. That doesn't make them any less of Gaels. The Picts and Britons were related insular Celtic peoples who were assimilated into the Scotic, i.e. Gaelic, nation.

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ROFL. The Curthin are not Gaelic Celts. Comprendí?

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

That said there are some modern authorities in archaeology and other fields who question the idea that Argyll and the Inner Hebrides only became Gaelicized with the coming of the Dal Riata from Antrim. Some believe this area was part of the Irish/Gaelic orbit since prehistory, which perhaps is confirmed by references by the Romans of Picti and Scoti working together centuries before Fergus Mor.

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Ever heard the saying - the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Tribal groups fight & ally as is their wont. Over land, resources, etc. About as newsworthy as saying northern countries in December get snow.

As for the Roman they were a new enemy so of course old enemies allied to rid themselves of the threat.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

I was talking about the fiefdoms held by Normans by Bruces time...most of them were originally held by Gaelic dynasties that died out and were inherited by Normans. That said Bruce's mother's family was Gaelic.

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Wherever do you think the name Marjorie is Gaelic? She was, at best, 1/4th Gaelic.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Yea and by ancestry I am also Celtic, both Scottish (father) and Irish (mother). Being something doesn't necessarily indicate familiarity...a Frenchman who gets a PhD in Chinese history might well know more than some random Chinese farmer on the topic.

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You're American of potential Celtic ancestry - R1b is far too generic to make any DNA based claims - with typical limited knowledge about the UK. I highly doubt you've a PhD yet alone one in Scottish or Irish history.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

He spoke Gaelic, claimed descent from Dal Riata, and was buried in Iona, traditional burial location of Dal Riatan kings and center of the Gaelic Columban Church. If his ancestry was once Pictish, which isn't known, by the time of his ascension he was a Gael by culture, language, and identity, or at least this was the case among his successors since it must be admitted that Kenneth MacAlpin is a shadowy figure.

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So did in Norse & Roman cultures. How do you think they traded? By dancing around a fire pit? Speaking Gaelic means absolutely nothing.

So did Norse Gaels. Knowing Gael culture means absolutely nothing.


Just as how being buried at Iona means nothing. Or did you not know Iona includes Norse Kings too? I said learn more than wikipedia.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Christ. Kenneth is NOT Aodh. It is NOT real Gaelic. Understand yet?

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So a medieval Gaelic Irishmen of Gaelic lineage, language, and culture who gets named some English, Welsh, French, or Biblical name ceases to be a Gael? In terms of lineage, we don't know what McAlpin was with absolute certainty but most historians accept he was a Gael. Whatever his origins, his dynasty spoke Gaelic, was culturally Gaelic, traced their lineage to the Dal Riata, was part of the Gaelic Columban Church, and so on. They were Gaels and even seen as such by contemporary Irishmen.

Why do you think Scotland is called "Scotland" or that Fenian tales were popular in medieval Scotland but not so much elsewhere in medieval Europe?

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Originally Posted by Traveler

ROFL. The Curthin are not Gaelic Celts. Comprendí?

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I know, I am saying that the Cruthin were assimilated by the Gaels, especially by the High Middle Ages. Those assimilated Cruthin aren't Gaels because they were once Picts or Britons, a near identical group of insular Celts ethnically speaking?

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Ever heard the saying - the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Tribal groups fight & ally as is their wont. Over land, resources, etc. About as newsworthy as saying northern countries in December get snow.

As for the Roman they were a new enemy so of course old enemies allied to rid themselves of the threat.

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My point isn't about the Romans and allies, enemies, but that there was a "Scoti" or Gaelic presence in the Hebrides/Argyll prior to historic move of the Dal Riatan kings out of Antrim.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

Wherever do you think the name Marjorie is Gaelic? She was, at best, 1/4th Gaelic.

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I don't think the name is Gaelic but that her paternal lineage is the Gaelic Earldom of Carrick and if I recall spoke Gaelic as her first language, was raised in a Gaelic culture, etc.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

You're American of potential Celtic ancestry - R1b is far too generic to make any DNA based claims - with typical limited knowledge about the UK. I highly doubt you've a PhD yet alone one in Scottish or Irish history.

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I've got my genealogy traced out and know where all my ancestors came from. Unfortunately with my direct paternal line I only know they came from Scotland, but based on my research it seems a high chance they were from a family on Islay, Kildalton Parish. My mother's ancestry is a different story...she is majority Irish by blood and her last ancestors to leave Ireland were Gaelic speakers from Liscannor.

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Originally Posted by Mug Ruith

So a medieval Gaelic Irishmen of Gaelic lineage, language, and culture who gets named some English, Welsh, French, or Biblical name ceases to be a Gael? In terms of lineage, we don't know what McAlpin was with absolute certainty but most historians accept he was a Gael. Whatever his origins, his dynasty spoke Gaelic, was culturally Gaelic, traced their lineage to the Dal Riata, was part of the Gaelic Columban Church, and so on. They were Gaels and even seen as such by contemporary Irishmen.

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Let's make it simple, yes? An off the boat Muslim speaks English, knows American culture (whatever that is), and changed his name to an Anglo name to blend in more. Is he English then?

And no, not every historian thinks he is Gael. Just Wikipedia page ones. It's why I said read more than wikipedia because it's very obvious that's the extent of your so-called "knowledge".

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Originally Posted by Mug Ruith

Why do you think Scotland is called "Scotland" or that Fenian tales were popular in medieval Scotland but not so much elsewhere in medieval Europe?

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I don't know. A people called the Scotti maybe? :lol00001:

Fenian tales? So "historian" tell me why an Irish lore would be popular elsewhere? What a side-splitting joke of a question.

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Originally Posted by Mug Ruith

I know, I am saying that the Cruthin were assimilated by the Gaels, especially by the High Middle Ages. Those assimilated Cruthin aren't Gaels because they were once Picts or Britons, a near identical group of insular Celts ethnically speaking?

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You don't even know who the Cruthin were. Hence your non-Gaelic Celts, possibly such as the Cruthin you mentioned prior.

As for assimilation. If you've done more than read wikipedia pages you might be worth discussing Cruthin with.

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Originally Posted by Mug Ruith

My point isn't about the Romans and allies, enemies, but that there was a "Scoti" or Gaelic presence in the Hebrides/Argyll prior to historic move of the Dal Riatan kings out of Antrim.

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Quit backtracking to make yourself feel special. Unlike you I've actually read a number of historical books on Ireland & Scotland. I could run circles around your wikipedia-based knowledge with my eyes closed.

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Originally Posted by Mug Ruith

I don't think the name is Gaelic but that her paternal lineage is the Gaelic Earldom of Carrick and if I recall spoke Gaelic as her first language, was raised in a Gaelic culture, etc.

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:bored:

Let's make it simple, yes? An off the boat Muslim speaks English, knows American culture (whatever that is), and changed his name to an Anglo name to blend in more. Is he English then?

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Originally Posted by Mug Ruith

I've got my genealogy traced out and know where all my ancestors came from. Unfortunately with my direct paternal line I only know they came from Scotland, but based on my research it seems a high chance they were from a family on Islay, Kildalton Parish.

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A Hebrides family. Impressive. If one knows nothing of the region. Like said there were Norse trading posts in Scotland & that happened to include a hotbed called Dumfries. And there were Vikings on Islay.

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Originally Posted by Mug Ruith

My mother's ancestry is a different story...she is majority Irish by blood and her last ancestors to leave Ireland were Gaelic speakers from Liscannor.

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And how long ago was that?