Study: Many childless Finns see parenthood as an exhausting chore

Last summer Finnish statistics officials announced that the country's birth rate this year was on course to be among the lowest since the mid-19th century. The Family Federation of Finland tried to find out why.

Towards the end of the 1960s the average age of a first-time mother in Finland was about 23 years old. These days, however, first-time mothers are about 29 years old and on average, first-time fathers are about 31.5 years old.

In its so-called Family Barometer study, which the group regularly carries out, the federation raised questions about stereotypes about family life, inequality between parents and even examined people's lack of knowledge in biology.

The group interviewed adults without children in order to ask them what family life meant to them.

The respondents often connected family life with owning an automobile, a house and having a steady, secure job. Many told the group they'd be hesitant to start a family too early in their lives.

In earlier family barometers many childless women cited the lack of a suitable partner as the reason behind their non-parental status.

But now, according to the study, women said that they're not having children because they don't want to lose their freedom. Some of those women said that if they gave birth to a child they'd have to give up travelling, enjoying hobbies and spending time with friends.

Future parents, maybe
Despite a trend of delaying parenthood, it's still uncommon for women to say they don't want to have children at all.

The federation says that a family barometer carried out a few years ago indicated that a childless lifestyle may be becoming the norm in Finland. However the group says the latest barometer does not support that theory.

Anna Rotkirch, a researcher at the family federation, says that people can accidentally "sleepwalk into childlessness," in that they simply wait too long to have children.

The fertility of women begins to decline at around the age of 25, Rotkirch says.

Fully one-half of male respondents said they did not know the effect age has on a woman's fertility, Rotkirch said.

This year's study found that as people wait to have their first offspring, the time between the births of each successive child have become shorter, which has led to siblings being born with smaller age differences than in previous generations.

It is perhaps not surprising that many childless people in Finland consider parenthood to be a daily struggle of fatigue and stress.

"When this set of circumstances is combined with people around 30 or 40 who often work a lot, and hard, it can be a recipe for problems," Rotkirch said.

Effects of parenthood viewed differently
For some of those hesitant about starting families, the issue of inequality between parental roles doesn't help matters, either, she said.

"In the barometer, women wondered how much time they'd be able to take off work, while men said they reckoned that they would not be able to work as much overtime once they become fathers," Rotkirch said.

Rotkirch suggested that young people in Finland should start to look at parenthood a bit differently. She said potential parents should consider having just one child at a time rather than waiting for sometime in the future to have several children in a short period of time.

She also said that Finland as a society should not penalise people for having children, regardless of which stage of life they're in. As an example, Rotkirch said that students shouldn't be made to suffer economic hardships just because they decide to have a baby.

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https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/s..._chore/9973186

Try before judging.

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Originally Posted by Rumata

Try before judging.

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According to this article Finns with children are happier than childless people. So yeah, maybe they should try before judging
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3f...inarickman.jpg

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Originally Posted by Antimage

According to this article Finns with children are happier than childless people. So yeah, maybe they should try before judging

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In my opinion it's very normal to be happier with children and I'd guess it for any country. But this study shows quite a different picture and so far I see no reason to believe this study.

Finland is very similar as many western European countries. Sad but true.
Still blaiming only women for that development is not right and will not change anything/make any good.

Can you blame them? Having small, noisy, crying, whining children is a nightmare. Ghastly. You can't wait for them to shut up. Anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or has a nanny in sole charge.

I think this is a HUGE mistake that we make as a society. New parents are told by existing parents "Kids are my life and the best thing I have ever done", when they should be told "Kids are fucking hard work, a serious responsibility, cost you money as teenagers and while they enrich your life, there's a lot of pain, worry and disappointment with the joy."

Maybe then people would stop and think before doing what is "my right to have a cute baby" and instead think about what is "their responsibilities to bring up a well balanced person". We need to have this conversation, we need to stop the "kids are a money spinner" crap that the lower socio-economic groups have and the "having kids is my right" crap that everyone else has as they wave goodbye to their babies as they drop them at childcare for most of their lives.

Kids are hard work and a responsibility. It's time people were told that.

I love being a mother. My daughter brings me such profound joy and pride...even when she is being a little shit lol. That said some people are not cut out for parenting... not for the selfish, the broke or weak of heart. I don't recommend it for everyone. The people who should be nowhere near kids end up having 10 though.

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Originally Posted by MissMischief

Can you blame them? Having small, noisy, crying, whining children is a nightmare. Ghastly. You can't wait for them to shut up. Anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or has a nanny in sole charge.

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Not all babies cry much. For example, I didn't :p
Baby crying is the way little humans communicate to the world and it shouldn't be regarded like a disaster. Yes, baby nursing requires patience and it's going to cause problems for parents who are immature themselves.

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Kids are hard work and a responsibility. It's time people were told that.

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Yes, it's the duty of good parents to tell it to their children.

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Originally Posted by dperucca

I love being a mother. My daughter brings me such profound joy and pride...even when she is being a little shit lol. That said some people are not cut out for parenting... not for the selfish, the broke or weak of heart. I don't recommend it for everyone. The people who should be nowhere near kids end up having 10 though.

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I agree with your post, except I see no real reason to take pride in the fact of being a parent if you've meant it.

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Originally Posted by MissMischief

Can you blame them? Having small, noisy, crying, whining children is a nightmare. Ghastly. You can't wait for them to shut up. Anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or has a nanny in sole charge.

I think this is a HUGE mistake that we make as a society. New parents are told by existing parents "Kids are my life and the best thing I have ever done", when they should be told "Kids are fucking hard work, a serious responsibility, cost you money as teenagers and while they enrich your life, there's a lot of pain, worry and disappointment with the joy."

Maybe then people would stop and think before doing what is "my right to have a cute baby" and instead think about what is "their responsibilities to bring up a well balanced person". We need to have this conversation, we need to stop the "kids are a money spinner" crap that the lower socio-economic groups have and the "having kids is my right" crap that everyone else has as they wave goodbye to their babies as they drop them at childcare for most of their lives.

Kids are hard work and a responsibility. It's time people were told that.

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If everyone followed your line of thinking, then the population would disappear within a generation. Having kids should be portrayed as a great thing so that people are more likely to want to have them. You're also overestimating the naivety/ignorance of people that want to have kids.

https://www.alternet.org/story/14179...aving_children

xD

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Originally Posted by Lightshade25

https://www.alternet.org/story/14179...aving_children

xD

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Can't stop laughing :lol00001:

But actually it's true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MissMischief

Can you blame them? Having small, noisy, crying, whining children is a nightmare. Ghastly. You can't wait for them to shut up. Anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or has a nanny in sole charge.

I think this is a HUGE mistake that we make as a society. New parents are told by existing parents "Kids are my life and the best thing I have ever done", when they should be told "Kids are fucking hard work, a serious responsibility, cost you money as teenagers and while they enrich your life, there's a lot of pain, worry and disappointment with the joy."

Maybe then people would stop and think before doing what is "my right to have a cute baby" and instead think about what is "their responsibilities to bring up a well balanced person". We need to have this conversation, we need to stop the "kids are a money spinner" crap that the lower socio-economic groups have and the "having kids is my right" crap that everyone else has as they wave goodbye to their babies as they drop them at childcare for most of their lives.

Kids are hard work and a responsibility. It's time people were told that.

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Maybe they are having hard time when they are raising them up but I think when the children are older and self-sustaining it pays off. Imagine being middle age/old with a shitty dog and childless, that sounds so miserable to me. Having a family (by family i mean real family with children) has its ups and downs but is overall fun I think.

Finns made highest number of babies after WW2. That is bit wierd as many young men died in war time.

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Originally Posted by Finnish Swede

Finns made highest number of babies after WW2. That is bit wierd as many young men died in war time.

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That's the era called the 'Baby boom'.

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Originally Posted by Dick

That's the era called the 'Baby boom'.

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Yup. It is still bit wierd as many young men had died in war. But I guess it was someway subconscious action/behave....wants to survive/help your own ethnic. I wonder there that is today....

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Originally Posted by Finnish Swede

Yup. It is still bit wierd as many young men had died in war. But I guess it was someway subconscious action/behave....wants to survive/help your own ethnic. I wonder there that is today....

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I dont know if it was about helping your own ethnic. My father only has one brother and my mother has 4 older sisters due to the fact that my grandparents wanted a son because they had a 2 year old baby boy that died so they gave up after her. they were old.

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Originally Posted by MissMischief

Can you blame them? Having small, noisy, crying, whining children is a nightmare. Ghastly. You can't wait for them to shut up.

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:eek: What a cold-hearted nightmare of a parent! Well, I guess some children can't wait for abusive and whining people, moaning about and berating children, to shut up! :)

What about all the happiness, fun, cuddles, laughter, and immense love that children bring too?

Of course children have times when they fall sick and cry, etc... like all humans have their moments. That's just human-nature. Do you drop your friends when they cry or feel sad if it gets in the way of your social life? :icon_ask:

You become emotionally stronger in coping with life as a result of experience, and take the good times with the bad through unconditional love... you can't just pick and choose emotions in people to suit yourself.

If a child throws tantrums or shouts a lot for attention, then it's the parents or guardians responsibility to teach them discipline, mannerisms, and good behaviour in a developing child. You can't blame children if their parents haven't taught them good behaviour. So that's the parents responsibility, and not the fault or blame of the child.

You was a child once too... imagine how you'd feel if your parents said you was 'ghastly' and a 'nightmare' and that they 'couldn't wait for you to shut up.' How would you feel if they were that arrogant, selfish, mean, unloving and cold-hearted?

If everyone adopted that arrogant attitude, there will be no future generations... which you may not care about at the moment, but you would care when you're old and frail one day.

It's only in this modern generation that young mothers who look after children, cook, run around energetically with their children, happily bathing children, lovingly reading them bedtime stories, caringly changing diapers and cleaning baby-vomit, and cleaning the home, etc... are scorned by feminists.

So how did females manage in previous generations? During the polite, strict, and orderly Victorian era, families often had loads of children (despite the very high infant mortality rate during this era when certain vaccinations weren't available, and despite females not having labour and childbirth pain relief options,) without females moaning, grumbling, and complaining, that something as pleasurable in life such as looking after and caring for their children and grandchildren was 'too much of a chore'.

Especially when one takes into consideration that Victorian-era females weren't as lucky, blessed, and fortunate to have all the 21st-century luxuries that spoiled and unappreciative modern females often take for granted;- such as washing-machines, vacuums, dishwashers, steam-mops, and all the huge range of affordable modern electrical devices that help to make cleaning and cooking so much more of a breeze, quicker, and a lot easier for modern-day females.... who don't need to carry large jugs of hot water from the kitchen stove just to fill a bath, nor injure and hurt their backs by hand-washing bed linen for hours, or hand-scrubbing floors for hours on their knees - thanks to all the modern home-cleaning devices and machines at their disposal.

It's only in this modern era that lazy people now think that something so natural in nature and life, such as caring for children, (who you should love and cherish and adore,) is somehow 'too much of a chore' :rolleyes: that will get in modern peoples way of spending money on their social life, clubbing, drinking, meaningless parties, etc.

Taking little toddlers along to 'Little Angels' and 'One O'Clock groups' (mother and toddler social meeting groups) for a few hours each week is very pleasurable, special, and fun, and a lot of mothers go along to these groups, smiling and chatting happily with other mothers. (A bit like all the excited crowds of mothers socialising and chatting about children a lot as they wait together outside school gates to collect their children, and are eager to see their children coming out of school to happily talk to their mummies about their day.)

It's lovely having picnics with your toddlers at these groups in the summer, and watching cute toddlers interact and bond and play with other toddlers of their own age group, with all the learning-toys and exercise playground areas in the Little Angels/parent and toddler centres and One O'Clock mother and toddler groups, and it helps toddlers learn to socialise with other toddlers prior to nursery-school age.

Mother and baby and toddler groups allows females to socialise with other loving mothers, where parenting advice and tips and support is shared with each other, and mothers usually love discussing their children's development with other mothers, making friends in their local community with other parents, and helping each other out too. There's loads of community-run parent and children groups, so mothers don't need to feel isolated and are able to make friends by meeting other children and parents.

It's a lovely feeling receiving lovingly hand-drawn cards from your children that they made at school on Mother's Day, and for fathers to receive loving cards to let them know they're loved and appreciated by their children on Father's Day.

Men are also welcome to attend One O'Clock and Little Angels and parenting groups too. Sometimes single, caring, and very loving fathers have sadly lost a partner who died or something, and they can be a bit shy and so they tend to sit alone with their child when they attend these play groups - as it's mostly females who take their children to these groups, but the few men who go along to them are made to feel welcome too... and they can meet females who love children at these supportive social groups, whilst having a cup of tea and watching their child(ren) play, develop social skills, and interacting with other children their own age.

If children were as difficult as you imply, then people wouldn't have more than 1 child... and I've often seen people with more than 1 child outside school gates, in playground parks, One O'Clock groups, etc.

A love for children is human-nature and a natural maternal instinct. :heartbea: You don't see birds or other living species in nature refusing to have young ones, or refusing to busily work hard in building their nesting homes, not hunting around all day to find food to feed all their young ones, or refusing to care for their precious little ones.

Love helps to overcome any challenges in life, and you grow emotionally stronger in learning to cope with any difficult times through experience. Having children whilst people are fertile, young, energetic, and fit, also lowers their risk in mid-life from breast cancer, ovarian cancer, etc.

When you're old and lonely one day, with no children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... and suffering from dementia, parkinson's, huntington's, or alzheimer's, etc... and all your friends and siblings have passed away... who's going to ever love and care for you in return?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/d1...5aca5239dd.jpg
http://i.picasion.com/resize86/a5a6b...a05c11e1ba.jpg

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Originally Posted by ♥ Lily ♥

:eek: What a cold-hearted and nightmare of a parent! Well, I guess some children can't wait for abusive people like that to shut up!

What about all the happiness, fun, cuddles, laughter, and love that children bring too?

Of course children have times when they cry... like all humans have their moments. You become emotionally stronger in coping with life as a result, and take the good times with the bad... you can't just pick and choose emotions in people to suit yourself.

You was a child once too... imagine if your parents were that arrogant, selfish, mean, unloving and cold-hearted towards children.

It's human-nature and a maternal instinct. Having children whilst people are fertile, energetic, and fit, also lowers their risk later in life of breast cancer, etc.

When you're old one day, and all your friends and siblings have passed away... who's going to ever love and care for you in return?

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Lucky who marry with you.

How difficult can it possibly be? These people need their asses kicked/raped.

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Originally Posted by ♥ Lily ♥

:eek: What a cold-hearted and nightmare of a parent! Well, I guess some children can't wait for abusive and whiny people moaning about children like that to shut up! :)

What about all the happiness, fun, cuddles, laughter, and immense love that children bring too?

Of course children have times when they cry... like all humans have their moments. Do you drop your friends when they cry or feel sad if it gets in the way of your social life? :icon_ask:

You become emotionally stronger in coping with life as a result, and take the good times with the bad with unconditional love... you can't just pick and choose emotions in people to suit yourself.

You was a child once too... imagine if your parents were that arrogant, selfish, mean, unloving and cold-hearted towards children.

It's only in this modern generation that young mothers who stay at home looking after children and cooking and cleaning at home are scorned by feminists.

It's only in this modern era that lazy people think that something as natural in nature as looking after your own children, who you love and cherish and adore is 'too much of a chore' that will get in the way of their social life, clubbing, parties, etc.

A love for children is human-nature and a natural maternal instinct. :heartbea: You don't see birds and other living species in nature refusing to have young ones, or refusing to work to find food to feed them, or refusing to love their precious and cared-for little ones. Love overcomes any challenges in life. Having children whilst people are fertile, energetic, and fit, also lowers their risk later in life of breast cancer, etc.

When you're old and lonely one day, and all your friends and siblings have passed away... who's going to ever love and care for you in return?

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Great post Lily! A lot of these women who have this indoctrinated career first/independent/no kids mentality fail to realize how lonely and miserable they're going to be when they get old. Opinions like the kind MissMischief has are a cancer to society.

Nations that do not want to sacrifice for raising children do not have a future.

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Originally Posted by Antimage

Maybe they are having hard time when they are raising them up but I think when the children are older and self-sustaining it pays off. Imagine being middle age/old with a shitty dog and childless, that sounds so miserable to me. Having a family (by family i mean real family with children) has its ups and downs but is overall fun I think.

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I think people normally see in their children their continuation in this world which gives them enough motivation to care about their children. The argument of being lonely and/or helpless in the old age, in my opinion, is secondary.

The entire human race should have a China 1 - 2 kid policy.

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Originally Posted by Óttar

The entire human race should have a China 1 - 2 kid policy.

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Agree.

The real problem is not Europeans few kids....it is non-Europeans huge amounts of kids. Earth is already more than over populated.
Yup, the latter matter is one which really should be solved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mingle

Last summer Finnish statistics officials announced that the country's birth rate this year was on course to be among the lowest since the mid-19th century. The Family Federation of Finland tried to find out why.

Towards the end of the 1960s the average age of a first-time mother in Finland was about 23 years old. These days, however, first-time mothers are about 29 years old and on average, first-time fathers are about 31.5 years old.

In its so-called Family Barometer study, which the group regularly carries out, the federation raised questions about stereotypes about family life, inequality between parents and even examined people's lack of knowledge in biology.

The group interviewed adults without children in order to ask them what family life meant to them.

The respondents often connected family life with owning an automobile, a house and having a steady, secure job. Many told the group they'd be hesitant to start a family too early in their lives.

In earlier family barometers many childless women cited the lack of a suitable partner as the reason behind their non-parental status.

But now, according to the study, women said that they're not having children because they don't want to lose their freedom. Some of those women said that if they gave birth to a child they'd have to give up travelling, enjoying hobbies and spending time with friends.

Future parents, maybe
Despite a trend of delaying parenthood, it's still uncommon for women to say they don't want to have children at all.

The federation says that a family barometer carried out a few years ago indicated that a childless lifestyle may be becoming the norm in Finland. However the group says the latest barometer does not support that theory.

Anna Rotkirch, a researcher at the family federation, says that people can accidentally "sleepwalk into childlessness," in that they simply wait too long to have children.

The fertility of women begins to decline at around the age of 25, Rotkirch says.

Fully one-half of male respondents said they did not know the effect age has on a woman's fertility, Rotkirch said.

This year's study found that as people wait to have their first offspring, the time between the births of each successive child have become shorter, which has led to siblings being born with smaller age differences than in previous generations.

It is perhaps not surprising that many childless people in Finland consider parenthood to be a daily struggle of fatigue and stress.

"When this set of circumstances is combined with people around 30 or 40 who often work a lot, and hard, it can be a recipe for problems," Rotkirch said.

Effects of parenthood viewed differently
For some of those hesitant about starting families, the issue of inequality between parental roles doesn't help matters, either, she said.

"In the barometer, women wondered how much time they'd be able to take off work, while men said they reckoned that they would not be able to work as much overtime once they become fathers," Rotkirch said.

Rotkirch suggested that young people in Finland should start to look at parenthood a bit differently. She said potential parents should consider having just one child at a time rather than waiting for sometime in the future to have several children in a short period of time.

She also said that Finland as a society should not penalise people for having children, regardless of which stage of life they're in. As an example, Rotkirch said that students shouldn't be made to suffer economic hardships just because they decide to have a baby.

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https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/s..._chore/9973186

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This article seems to be written in a bit sensationalistic tone. Or on the other hand the study has been done in sensationalistic tone to garner attention, don't take it serious kiddos. These kind of questionnaires can be seriously skewed by the set of questions you choose to make, and then by how you interpret the answers you get.

For example here:

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In earlier family barometers many childless women cited the lack of a suitable partner as the reason behind their non-parental status.

But now, according to the study, women said that they're not having children because they don't want to lose their freedom. Some of those women said that if they gave birth to a child they'd have to give up travelling, enjoying hobbies and spending time with friends.

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It is very likely that women have not changed at all in few years. What has changed is the set of questions given to them. You can basically get any answer you want by carefully choosing the questions.

Let's for example set a question, "what are negatives for having kids?" Then you put there boxes like "children are smelly shitty creatures" or "lack of personal freedom" and other yaadayaada. Of course any sane person will tick these boxes because tadaa they are the right answers. The problem is when you interpret these answers as the reason why people are having less children. To most it may be, that the fact babies are smelly shitfactories, is in the end, only a minor nuisance and the real reason they are not having kids is completely elsewhere.

I always find it funny when people attack educated people, or "career people" for not having kids, when actual statistics say it is the opposite. If you are not a muslim immigrant, educated people are having more children than the uneducated. Sure kids are coming at older age but it's not all black and white you know, older parents may be both mentally and financially, in better situation to raise children, so their kids may grow up to be spoiled shitty little brats.

Selfish world we live in.

It's all about me me me. I want I want I want.

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Originally Posted by catgeorge

Selfish world we live in.

It's all about me me me. I want I want I want.

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Indeed. The sooner people realize this, the better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MissMischief

Can you blame them? Having small, noisy, crying, whining children is a nightmare. Ghastly. You can't wait for them to shut up. Anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or has a nanny in sole charge.

I think this is a HUGE mistake that we make as a society. New parents are told by existing parents "Kids are my life and the best thing I have ever done", when they should be told "Kids are fucking hard work, a serious responsibility, cost you money as teenagers and while they enrich your life, there's a lot of pain, worry and disappointment with the joy."

Maybe then people would stop and think before doing what is "my right to have a cute baby" and instead think about what is "their responsibilities to bring up a well balanced person". We need to have this conversation, we need to stop the "kids are a money spinner" crap that the lower socio-economic groups have and the "having kids is my right" crap that everyone else has as they wave goodbye to their babies as they drop them at childcare for most of their lives.

Kids are hard work and a responsibility. It's time people were told that.

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Unless someone lives with limited human contact, its pretty clear to everyone that children are hard work just by observing the world around us but it should come naturally if youre a hardworking and caring person.

Its not for everyone though just like marriage isnt. Some people arent suited to the lifestyle and prefer to focus on their own endeavours (personal development, travelling, career, scientific research, preference of childfree life). I dont think thats necessarily selfish if you know its for the greater good i.e improving yourself as a person and giving to the community.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Óttar

The entire human race should have a China 1 - 2 kid policy.

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Maybe some overpopulated lands such as Bangladesh or Nigeria could temporarily strive for that, but that is absolutely not needed in the West where a stable population is needed to replace the aging workforce and have enough tax revenue to keep the economy stable. Otherwise, you're gonna keep importing migrants from third world countries and continue scratching your head as to why that happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harkonnen

Indeed. The sooner people realize this, the better.

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Soul connectivity, nurturing, endless caring and loving is lost to selfishness and self - centeredness, developing yourself is boring... developing others is where its at.

In other words, in simple words - 98% of top executives, CEO's, directors etc... have families with children or they are looked down upon as unable to connect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catgeorge

Soul connectivity, nurturing, endless caring and loving is lost to selfishness and self - centeredness, developing yourself is boring... developing others is where its at.

In other words, in simple words - 98% of top executives, CEO's, directors etc... have families with children or they are looked down upon as unable to connect.

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Take that tampon out of your ass.

I have kids and yes it is exhausting chore,, it ages you tremendously.

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Originally Posted by Harkonnen

Take that tampon out of your ass.

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Well simple thing is - the definition of life has been replaced by plastic fantastic. Just keep this diarrhea out of Greece. :thumb001: