This thread is about culture. Not about genetics and anthropology.
By "North Caucasians" are meant typical North Caucasians like Circassians, Vaynakhs, Dagestanians and Ossetians too.
Please vote only if you have an idea on the subject.
This thread is about culture. Not about genetics and anthropology.
By "North Caucasians" are meant typical North Caucasians like Circassians, Vaynakhs, Dagestanians and Ossetians too.
Please vote only if you have an idea on the subject.
Culture is largely determined by religion. For this reason, they are closer to the Armenians.
Do you know all these peoples well enough to draw this conclusion?
I don't deny the importance of religion but it's limited too. I don't think that for example Orthodox Karelians are closer to Bulgarians than Muslim Pomaks are.
P. S. Don't forget that a part of Ossetians and a small part of Circassians are Christian too.
Georgians akin to Armenians culturally and mentally. They both are civilized compared to other Caucasians and have common history (under domination of Iranian empires and Bagratid united kingdom). Also Armenian and Georgian temples has conical roofs and their church leaders bore title of Catholicos.
[QUOTE = Rumata; 6400477] Знаете ли всички тези хора достатъчно добре, за да направите това заключение?
Не отричам значението на религията, но и тя е ограничена. Не ми се струва, че например православните карели са по-близки до българите, отколкото мюсюлманските помаци.
PS Не забравяйте, че част от осетинците и малка част от черкезите също са християни. [/ ЦИТАТ]
Yes, and in your words there is truth, but still all - Georgians, Armenians, Ossetians, Circassians, Azeri, Balkars, Karelians share one region - the Caucasus. For this reason, there are many similarities in cultural significance that are independent of religion - regional. But for those people who are Christian, closeness increases. Like us on the Balkans - a cultural tradition of the Balkans, with nuances according to religion. My husband is an Armenian
Karelia is not in Caucasus and Armenia is on Lesser Caucasus separated from the Greater Caucasus. Let's not complicate the subject with Turkic peoples too.
https://d1softball.net/wp-content/up...ntains-map.jpg
[QUOTE = Rumata; 6400502] Карелия не е в Кавказ, а Армения е на Малък Кавказ, отделен от Големия Кавказ. Нека не усложняваме темата и с тюркските народи.
https://d1softball.net/wp-content/up...ntains-map.jpg[/ Цитат]
You are asking a question and I have shared my opinion. For more than a millennium, the region has been shaped by the cultural understanding of today's Caucasus. The cultures of the Turkic peoples are also intertwined to a great extent, and it is not right to divide them.
Very difficult question. I'm not an expert in any sense but by impression is that southern Caucasus has a sort of warmer med feel in mentality than north Caucasus. They're closer to northern Caucasus in terms of autochthonous culture; like clothing, dances, style of traditional music. But their mentality and way of life reminds me more of Armenians, maybe it's the shared religious ground.
To Armenians obviously, since both are Christians.
If you ask me, I'd say they are closer to Armenians. This isn't really an informed guess though, just a hunch.
I don't know a whole lot about the Caucasus and it's people.
Are you trying to insult the Hemshin Armenians?
Krasnodar Armenians as well as those specifically from Sochi and Abkhazia are largely descended from Hamshenahay and they are Christian. Muslim Hamshenahay were forcefully converted by the sword roughly 3 centuries or so ago.
To answer, the OP's question, Georgians are far closer to Armenians than to North Caucasians not because of religion, but other cultural aspects such as certain overlap in cuisine, architecture, genetics, either side being a part of another throughout various points in history etc.
Thanks for the replying. Indeed the Wikipedia says that a part of Hemshin are Christian now. Strangelly, it doesn't mention the circumstances of the conversions though.
Quote:
...
The details and the accompanying circumstances for the migrations and the conversions during the Ottoman era are not clearly known or documented.[40][41]
As a result of those developments, distinctive communities with the same generic name have also appeared in the vicinity of Hopa, Turkey as well as in the Caucasus. Those three communities are almost oblivious to one another's existence.[42]
The Hemshinli of Hemshin proper (also designated occasionally as western Hemshinli in publications) are Turkish-speaking Sunni Muslims who mostly live in the counties (ilçe) of Çamlıhemşin, Çayeli, İkizdere, Pazar and Hemşin in Turkey's Rize Province.[43]
The Hopa Hemshinli (also designated occasionally as eastern Hemshinli in publications) are Sunni Muslims and mostly live in the Hopa and Borçka counties of Turkey's Artvin Province. In addition to Turkish, they also speak a dialect of western Armenian they call "Homshetsma" or "Hemşince" in Turkish.[44]
Homshentsik (also designated occasionally as Northern Homshentsik in publications) are Christians who live in Georgia and in Russia's Krasnodar Krai. They speak Homshetsma as well.[45] There are also some Muslim Hamshentsi living in Georgia and Krasnodar[46] and some Hamshentsi elements amongst the Meskhetian Turks.[47]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemshin_peoples
Not easy answer. Culture has many aspects. In terms of folklore, Georgians and Armenians are like from different planets despite being neighbors, North Cuacasians are a bit closer to Georgians. But when it comes to lifestyle, mentality etc it's opposite. Georgians are the most liberal and modern nation in Caucasus, Ossetians are next, followed by Armenians. So if we compare the lifestyle i guess Armenians are even closer to patriarchal North Caucasus, than Georgians are.
Also modern North Caucasus and Armenia are dominated by Russian culture, while Georgia has much more influences from the West.
Armenia, imo.
I do not find Georgian culture really close neither to Armenian, nor to North Caucasian. It has totally different vibe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLV1nJgtErI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8hW_wBbvNM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBccj1uyGUo
p.s. I voted for Armenia :)
native peoples of the North Caucasus have almost identical culture and mindset, extremely strong conservatism and tribalism inside the local societies compared to our lovely, silent and peaceful South Caucasian neighbors who had been ruled by monarchism a few centuries ago..
Mingrelians are closer to Abkhazians, Svans to Kharachay-Balkarians, Lazes to Hemshins.
There is also different aspects of culture and ethnopsychis. South Caucasus is warmer then North. People are more open, friendly, loud speaking and so on. While North Caucasians are like North people with less emotions.
But in majority Kartvelian world is like an island surrounded by non related cultures and peoples.
I don't feel much similarities neither with Armenians nor with Ossetians.
Also I don't see North Caucasus like one undividible region. There are Circassians, who lived in the low lands near Black Sea, had early feudalism. Though they are for me enough cold people and far they have high IQ, less tribal sociaty, like Sea people are ready for new changes and development. They also have a lot of G2 like Kartvelians. I see them closer then peoples of Dagestan and other peoples of the East Caucasus who were under Middle East culture.
What's about Armenians we have some difference mentality that make us not to love each other.
For example Ossetians are our historical enemies but in other ways we don't care about them. What's about Armenians they lived here for centuries and made a lot of money. They are like Jews, clever and purposeful. While we are more joyful, like singing, dancing. They are high IQ-ied people strong at science. We are strong at poetry and art. They have historically old historical sources while we have old poetry. So we don't like to graze on one pasture. We don't understand each other.
What's about North Caucasian tribalism, anarchism, and conservatism, we are divided for them by the Great Caucasus and have less connections. Think we will not understand each other well. Georgian youth is seeking itself in music, poetry, literature, theatre and a lot of thing. While I see North Caucasian especially it's East part main purpose is to be "like ancestors", marry someone, have children, and dance lezginka in Moscow. We have very different views of life. I think Moscow has such politics not to develop them. That's why there in Russian Federation Caucasian traditions are mythologised. Like ou ye, our tribal culture is specific you don't need any more. Lezginka is cool.
Thank you very much for your extended and honest reply. The one thing I disagree with I doubt Kremlin has so much influence on North Caucasian societies as to make them care too much about their traditions. I think it's ingrained in them internally. Kremlin could be interested in something opposite: like making them closer to "an average Russian citizen" which is easy to understand.
Their tribalism and conservatism is not more then that fact that they lived in tribal societies or very early feudalism systems until Russians came.
But they have been living in state for more then one century. But they are still living tribal societies live. It's very bad for them. They will not survive in the 21th century and tecnological world.
All metropole try not to develop its colonial lands.
Georgia's ethnic population:
86.8 % Georgian
6.3 % Azeri
4.5% Armenian
2.3% Others
Others @2.3% include:
Russians
Ossetians
Yazidis
Ukrainians
Kists
Greeks
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/gg.html
*Ethnic Origins can influence temperaments.
Azeris in Georgia probably account
for some hostility against Armenians.
If North Caucasians had independent states, they would be more open-minded. Even Azerbaijan has more modern society, than North Caucasus.
One more thing why I find Armenians closer to us than North Caucasus is demography. Population in both countries are aging, like in west, median age for Georgians is 38, for Armenians 35 and for Dagestan 28.
I can imagine a confederation of Georgia with Armenia, but with Dagestan not really.
Reason 1)religion 2)socio-political evolution 3)modern political spheres
I know Turkish and Georgian Lazes. Today they are very different though they are one people. But they have lived different lives for centuries. So are Iran Georgians and Georgian Georgians.
Christian Dagestanis like Udi people. Whom they are closer to?
To Lezgins or Armenians with who they have one confession of Christianity? Who is to you closer Russians or Iran Georgians who we have not seen for 400 years?
We have background but we different ways of evolution.
10 years ago Russian movies were translated every New Year as they were too close for Georgian TV viewers. New generation like my nephew who was grown up on West movies watching it does not know any more on which minute he has to laugh or what they are about. Like Persia is a far Near East country for us, with exotic culture while 300 years ago our granpas knew Persian language and literature better then Georgian.
So whom are Georgians closer? Georgians are not closer even to Georgians themselves who have lived in other religions and socio-political societies like Turkey or Iran.
Caucasus is not stable region like Europe. It's under control of different empires and political unions who bought and bring still their religions and ideologies. Here was said Georgians are mostly open minded. Georgians are not open minded. But Georgia is under USA-EU political spheres and they brought here last 15 years Neoliberal ideology. That's all. While Arabs brought in Dagestan and Chechnya salafism after SSSR crushed.
Of course there are some background and mentality that you share with.
Georgians of modern Northern East Turkey live among Turks since 1628 when Ottomans conquered Southern Georgian Principality.
They are Muslims, surrounded now by Turks, Anatolian Turcomans, Kurds who migrated to their lands.
They are strange when you watch them now, their dances, songs etc influenced by for us far Turkish culture.
But when I met them in reality I discovered that they shared still with us specific Georgian behaviour and mentality. They are very open, friendly, like to talk a lot. In five minutes they can become your good friends, tell.everything about themselves and ask about health your parents that they have never seen.
Russian members will understand what I mean under this specific Georgian mentality. Lazes for example don't share such things thing..they much more cold and closed people
They have not that "Georgianism"
But they share some other things with us. I will upload ageing pics about role of Lazes in ethnogeneses of Pontic Greeks and Black Sea Turks where Laz character was good discribed.
the NE/Caucasian population in the North East Caucasus and beyond is rapidly growing day by day, its inhabitants move to the north and west regions like Kalmykia, Stavropol krai, Astrakhan oblast and surrounding neighborhood, and populate the local empty places very quickly
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...map_en.svg.png
Stavropol krai
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/acer...6_original.png
Darganti
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/acer...2_original.png
Maharulal
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/acer...1_original.png
Nakh peoples are even more in the size of their population than the two above-mentioned indigenous ethnic groups combined
https://ibb.co/fFCZtSc
https://ibb.co/b63C7qV
Here is about Pontic Greeks and their "Caucasian" features. It must be from Colchian tribes of the region.
Lazes are known to be a bit dumbasses and funny. + The relative language make me to feel them closer then peoples of my religion/ political sphere/ evolution etc
So when I am asked who are closer who are closer Armenians or Ossetians I have no idea. That's no important for me. They are both neighbours. With one we share Southern character, history of antic and medieval Kingdoms, Christianity culture from Byzantium and with other some common in folk dances and songs.
What about common in background and common in "blood" that's is very important for us, I am sure only about people of Lazistan. Even if they have now different religion, ideological, political and cultural stratifications.
As for the topic I can say that Armenians from Armenia like Georgians and are almost unaware about existence of North Caucasians. There is only some vague idea about North Caucasians as some wild violent peoples. For example if someone in Armenia has wild character and behave violent and vengeful he may be nicknamed as Chechen or Pushtun. ;)