Considering that most late Neolithic Farmers in Northern/Western Europe were paternally WHG, despite being autosomally no more than 1/4 WHG.
Any theories?
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Considering that most late Neolithic Farmers in Northern/Western Europe were paternally WHG, despite being autosomally no more than 1/4 WHG.
Any theories?
They were Chads
An interesting off-topic tidbit btwQuote:
Remains from Iron Gates reveal the male hunter-gatherers, on average, were more muscular and about a head taller than the male farmers
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the...gers-first-metQuote:
According to a paper published in 2016 in the journal PNAS, Iron Gates hunter-gatherers were eating domesticated wheat and barley as early as 8,600 years ago, more than 400 years before the Anatolian farmers arrived. Researchers discovered starch granules in the tooth plaque of some of the foragers.
Hunter-Gatherer lifestyle is healthier so there's more meat, also less cramped quarters of farmers living in small villages/towns = less disease and childhood stunting. So yeah they were more physically imposing because of lifestyle.
It's still unusual though. EEF men must have allowed them to come into their settlements and dominate sexually.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Chief
My theory is that women were more dominant in early EEF society.
Another way to put it, Farmer Wives stole HG men. ;) Farmer women were prettier.
Where is the proof for this Creoda? Other than the island of Sardinia where mesolithic i2 was dominant, my haplogroup G2a dominated neolithic europe.
If it really was the case, then I think Neolithic women thought their culture was stupid and idiotic. Check out what LBK farmers did to other LBK villages, they massacred thousands (when population of entire Europe was barely 100,000) and even cannibalized their flesh, including their brains. No one knows why but they think it was part of their religion. If I was a LBK woman I'd GTFO!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herxhe...ological_site)
Sexual selectionQuote:
Originally Posted by ChildofMud
Globular Amphora remains, Iron Gates remains etc Paternally they were I, specifically I2Quote:
Originally Posted by War Chief
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/lin..._culture.shtmlQuote:
The fast expansion of the LBK culture did not leave much time for Near Eastern farmers to intermingle with Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers - a fact now confirmed by the analysis of several LBK genomes that show only about 5 to 10% of indigenous European admixture. However, Mesolithic Europeans continued to live side by side with LBK farmers and progressively interbred with them during the later Rössen (4600-4300 BCE) and Schöningen (4200-3950 BCE) periods. The only exception is northern France, where the LBK-derived RRBP (French acronym standing for Recent Linear Pottery of the Parisian Basin) immediately shows high levels of indigenous European admixture.
By the way, you should know that Neolithic farmers (EEF) is actually a conglomerate of WHG and Natufian. So they had WHG in them from the very beginning in Anatolia.
No they didn't have it from the very beginning in Anatolia. The Early European Farmers (EEF) were in fact a mixture of mainly Anatolian Neolithic Farmers (ANF), in general around 75% to 85% up to the Late Neolithic, with the Western Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), so I think it’d better for us to talk of the ANF, not EEF.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Chief
British Farmers are all I2 as well, and Scandinavian Farmers I1 I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
EEF is 40% Basal Eurasian (Natufian) and 60% West Eurasian, derived from the same thing WHG came from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
https://i.imgur.com/OCf27Dp.png
Yes. The British farmers were tested and found to be I, I2a2a or I2a1. The Megalithic paper also tells of I2 dominance in the Isles pre-Beaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-019-0871-9
Also, the I2a2 and I1 are ultimately of GAC and TRB(Funnelbeaker) Neolithic origins
Farming is a lifestyle though. How many ex-WHG's ditched hunting and picked up agriculture? Almost all of them
I'm getting a lot of my information from this video by the way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZD2VaZHA2g
^ 2:02 for mention about who EEF are in relation to WHG
A fellow G. Welcome brother. Farming is always underrated and it was an important part of European history.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Chief
Natufians themselves were derived mostly from a dzudzuana/AHG/ANF like group that subsisted in the Levant before an admixture event with IBM mashubians led to their ethnogenesis 12kya, AHG/ANF on the other hand were mostly WHG like plus some natufian like group they mixed with in the Caucasus at some point during the UP, but introgression from actual natufians into Neolithic Anatolia remained relatively low.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Chief
https://i.imgur.com/hzp2ndJ.png
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...9/F2.large.jpg
Have there been any funnelbeaker samples found belonging to I1 yet? From what I’ve seen its expansion happened during the BA not the Neolithic. TRB/GAC all seem to belong to haplogroup I2 same as Atlantic EEF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
Not in Sardinia.
I stand corrected then. I1 coming from the East later on makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperator Biff
Davidski mentioned it in his blog in the past. Here’s an I1 Ancient Samples Map that Deadly77 put together on Google Maps from anthrogenica.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperator Biff
Link to the Google map is here: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4350000038&z=3
Why is WHG admixture so small in Europeans today compared to EEF if they were cucked? I think there is more to this story than Y-DNA. WHGs are so fucking overrated.
It is because the ydna I types got the Farmer women. Ydna doesn't always correspond to admixture though. It is obvious that in the past some of the men had a lot of women so many descendants born with a certain ydna. You can see this in any population if you look at the diversity of mtdna in comparison to ydna. Then many of the I types were overridden by R1b types. The winner gets the spoils I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daco Celtic
Ok but if WHGs were successful they would have more admixture modern day Europeans. I think they were actually quite unsuccessful and were out bred by EFF (those that didn't mix with farmers). I think their backwards way of life was no match for the more sophisticated farmer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley
It is amazing though that all the Farmer groups in places like Britain and Ireland so far have been 12a. It's most likely not the case in other parts of Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daco Celtic
Around 4000 BCE, Neolithic farming communities reached the northwestern fringes of Europe, including the British Isles (14, 15) and Scandinavia (1, 2, 16, 17). A marked hunter-gatherer (HG) admixture has been observed in the later farmer groups compared with the Early Neolithic farmers on the continent (2, 10, 12).
We found greater macrohaplogroup mtDNA diversity than Y-chromosomal (YDNA) diversity. Whereas mtDNA lineages from megalith burials harbor haplogroups K, H, HV, V, U5b, T, and J (among others), males from megalith burials belong almost exclusively to YDNA haplogroup I, more specifically to the I2a sublineage, which has a time to most recent common ancestor of ∼15000 BCE (51).
Males from the present study belonged to YDNA haplogroup I, and those who could be resolved beyond this level were characterized as belonging to the I2a2a or I2a1b branch. Four of the 10 Primrose/Carrowmore males (Primrose 9, 12, 13, and 16) could be further resolved to the former sublineage, while the two Scottish males and the four Ansarve males could be further placed in the latter branch (Table 1 and SI Appendix, section S7).
The high frequency of the HG-derived I2a male lineages among megalith as well as nonmegalith individuals (SI Appendix, section S11.6) suggests a male sex-biased admixture process between the farmer and the HG groups (2, 12, 53, 54), but when this admixture occurred is unclear.
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/19/9469
Yes, I don't doubt the success of I2a in Northern Europe but I suspect they benefited from the fact that northern Europe was sparsely populated and didn't have larger farmer communities like in points to the south.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley
Yes I agree. Not being a male I'm not being a rooster about this. :) I just find it interesting that the farmers in the North had a HG ydna.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daco Celtic
https://otod.files.wordpress.com/201...crowing-22.jpg
I'm just an advocate for the rights of neolithic farmer women in the British Isles. I hate to see them defiled. I'm a softie like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley
it doesn't workQuote:
Originally Posted by Dick
I tend to be a bit detached but I'm glad I live in this day and not the past. I don't think it was good for either sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daco Celtic
30% of neolithic blood in England, it's pretty huge...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daco Celtic
I think the big winner are the Indo-Europeans and the Neolithic farmers, the WHG are the losers.
That's exactly what I thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by dududud
All the neolithic noble lines were I, look at all the tombs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley
I think in Britain and Ireland the winners were the R1b men. The Irish and British neolithic doesn't appear to have survived much. The neolithic component that most of us Isles people share is more than likely with GAC and not the British Neolithic population. I'll be interested to see more studies on this which are due out this year. I'll revise my view if I get info to the contrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by dududud
G2 first replaced i2 in most of Europe. then, in the late neolithic, i2 had an expansion and started replacing g2 again. check out the maps on indo-european.eu (the only good thing on that site)Quote:
Originally Posted by War Chief
Here is the original link;Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....nt-Samples-Map
R Alpinids are Übermenschen, not I Nordids or J Medids. Since Germany is mostly R, they can fly the Swastika.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
I and J were brothers anyway.
this was disproven, Anatolian farmers were a thing of their own, and they spread from there and "conquered" whg's to the west and some proto-Natufians to the southQuote:
Originally Posted by War Chief
30% of barcin = neolithic. It's the same shit. You are 30% barcin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley
In Sardinia it's 90% in the middle-land. So huuuuugeeee, where is your indo-european?
R1B was definitely the superior conquer in Europe.