The most ultimate Hungarian K13 database thus far

I am finally ready to share in one thread all the hard work I started a while ago: that is, the most comprehensive set of results for Eurogenes K13 calculator of Hungarian samples, broken down on all the major historic regions of the Carpathian Basin. I will initially post screenshots of the tables of content from each region, and will try to collect some more results, hopefully thanks to future contributions to this thread from others, and then, after a little while I will also post the final regional averages. I decided to start with K13 first, since it is the most accurate (even if not perfect) calculator out there for European populations. The way I decided on the regions is taking into account the history of the Hungarian population in the Carpathian Basin, which overlaps on modern country borders, hence I also used mostly cross-border definitions. These are: Transdanubia, Northern Hungary, Alföld, Transylvania and Budapest. I also made two separate categories for two sets of Hungarians, who lived more isolated from the other ones and have a strong self-identity: Székely and Csángó. At the end I plan to post a brand new Hungarian average, that will be based on infinitely more samples than the current one, and should be the most representative.

Very much looking forward to seeing it all!

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Originally Posted by Dunai

I am finally ready to share in one thread all the hard work I started a while ago: that is, the most comprehensive set of results for Eurogenes K13 calculator of Hungarian samples, broken down on all the major historic regions of the Carpathian Basin. I will initially post screenshots of the tables of content from each region, and will try to collect some more results, hopefully thanks to future contributions to this thread from others, and then, after a little while I will also post the final regional averages. I decided to start with K13 first, since it is the most accurate (even if not perfect) calculator out there for European populations. The way I decided on the regions is taking into account the history of the Hungarian population in the Carpathian Basin, which overlaps on modern country borders, hence I also used mostly cross-border definitions. These are: Transdanubia, Northern Hungary, Alföld, Transylvania and Budapest. I also made two separate categories for two sets of Hungarians, who lived more isolated from the other ones and have a strong self-identity: Székely and Csángó. At the end I plan to post a brand new Hungarian average, that will be based on infinitely more samples than the current one, and should be the most representative.

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i cant wait! Thankyou Dunai :)

I will start first with Transdanubia, which will contain Hungarians living in both Southern, Western and Central Transdanubia, including the Hungarian communities from areas which today are in Slovenia, Croatia, Austria and Western Slovakia (Csallóköz):

https://i.imgur.com/kJpgOgQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/6OlnDS6.png

Then I will continue with Northern Hungary, that contains the Northern Hungary region, including most of Southern and Eastern Slovakia and Transcarpathia in Ukraine:

https://i.imgur.com/DNXDIPf.png

And lastly for this time around, Budapest, including Pest County, and I decided to make a separate category for it, since it is a melting pot of many different Hungarians, originating from all historical regions, and also because it doesn't really fit into any other major region, being a little bit of both Transdanubia, Alföld and Northern Hungary:

https://i.imgur.com/KEGOylN.png

https://i.imgur.com/0rjlFwT.png

I'm specifically interested in these regions:

-Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg
-Nograd
-Jasz-Nagykun-Szolnok
-Hajdu-Bihar
-Zala

Do you have data regionally specified?

A few specifications: I already collected the K13 results from current and past Hungarian members of this site, and the reason I won't write anything more specific to each individual is because I got most of this information from private conversations with people, to whom I promised to keep their private data absolutely confidential. Plus I don't believe there is needed the information of village, city, county that they are from, because that's splitting hair way too much, while larger regions is where I believe the focus should rather be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

I'm specifically interested in these regions:

-Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg
-Nograd
-Jasz-Nagykun-Szolnok
-Hajdu-Bihar
-Zala

Do you have data regionally specified?

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i posted some Hungarians with ancestry from there long ago in the old South Slavic and neighbours thread, did you see those?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dunai

A few specifications: I already collected the K13 results from current and past Hungarian members of this site, and the reason I won't write anything more specific to each individual is because I got most of this information from private conversations with people, to whom I promised to keep their private data absolutely confidential. Plus I don't believe there is needed the information of village, city, county that they are from, because that's splitting hair way too much, while larger regions is where I believe the focus should rather be.

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Did you include half-hungarian members in this database?

In this post I will focus on Alföld, which contains both Southern and Northern Hungarian Plain regions, including Partium and Banat regions which are part of Romania and Vojovodina region, which is part of Serbia:

https://i.imgur.com/kZ1WPU7.png

https://i.imgur.com/zjLDTUb.png

https://i.imgur.com/2XMuoiw.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universe

Did you include half-hungarian members in this database?

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I limited my research on people who have at least 80-85% Hungarian origin, since it is very hard to find people with 90-100% Hungarian ethnic bakground, but I also found many who had no none-Hungarian grandparents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dunai

I limited my research on people who have at least 80-85% Hungarian origin, since it is very hard to find people with 90-100% Hungarian ethnic bakground, but I also found many who had no none-Hungarian grandparents.

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I should have phrased my question differently. Did you include people who have foreign ancestry, like Imre or Mr.G? A Hungarian who has German/Serb/Slovak ancestry from Hungary isn't foreign of course.

Including half Americans, 1/4 dutch and other mixes like Iresselene can skew the avarage. If you add one or two it won't change much of course, but hungarian country avarage result should be based on people who have ancestry only from here, or from other historic hungarian lands(vojvodina, székelyföld etc)

Also, what are the regional avarages? Should be easy to get from excel.

And lastly I will post Eastern Hungarian results, starting with the Székely, and in this case I didn't include Maros County, which is only partially part of Székelyföld and many of the locals rather identify as Transylvanian Hungarians, but I did include Bukovina Székelys, who used to live in Suceava County, and fled there from Székelyföld in the 18th century:

https://i.imgur.com/JwveZnC.png

https://i.imgur.com/AW4JTn8.png

Then I will continue with Transylvania, to which besides Maros I also added Máramaros and Szilágy counties, which are only partially part of Partium region:

https://i.imgur.com/Krauq4I.png

And lastly the Csángó people:

https://i.imgur.com/vzrp8Vs.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universe

I should have phrased my question differently. Did you include people who have foreign ancestry, like Imre or Mr.G? A Hungarian who has German/Serb/Slovak ancestry from Hungary isn't foreign of course.
Including half Americans, 1/4 dutch and other mixes like Iresselene can skew the avarage. If you add one or two it won't change much of course, but hungarian country avarage result should be based on people who have ancestry only from here, or from other historic hungarian lands(vojvodina, székelyföld etc)

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When somebody is 1/4 none-Hungarian I obviously didn't take their results into account, also I only considered people who are little bit mixed with other historical populations of the Carpathian Basin.

Are Hungarians in Ukraine notably more Slavic/Russian-shifted than average?

Sometimes widely divergent results, I must say. Some of them are just like Slovaks and some are very Germanic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leto

Are Hungarians in Ukraine notably more Slavic/Russian-shifted than average?

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I have barely found such samples, but they are genetically and culturally related to other Northern Hungarian people, who tend to have the most Slavic input from all other Hungarian regions. When in a few days I will post the regional averages all these will be more visible.

Fantastic!

Where will we see average for each region, so they can be added to Vahaduo? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dunai

I have barely found such samples, but they are genetically and culturally related to other Northern Hungarian people, who tend to have the most Slavic input from all other Hungarian regions. When in a few days I will post the regional averages all these will be more visible.

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Yep, Ukraine is a fairly young and fairly artificial state which combined several historically and culturally different regions.
Great job at any rate, very commendable! :thumb001:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

i posted some Hungarians with ancestry from there long ago in the old South Slavic and neighbours thread, did you see those?

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No, can you please link me?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leto

Sometimes widely divergent results, I must say. Some of them are just like Slovaks and some are very Germanic.

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Because Slovakia had significant german population, for example the capital Bratislava was german majority city before 1920, but other big slovak cities were also 1/3 or 1/4 german.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Est.1992

Fantastic!

Where will we see average for each region, so they can be added to Vahaduo? :)

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I have the results ready, however I will wait a few days to see if I could add any more samples from forum contributors. I think we have time to add them to Vahaduo, later it can be based on even more samples.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dunai

I have the results ready, however I will wait a few days to see if I could add any more samples from forum contributors. I think we have time to add them to Vahaduo, later it can be based on even more samples.

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can we not try them already out? it does not have to be added to vahaduo right away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blondie

Because Slovakia had significant german population, for example the capital Bratislava was german majority city before 1920, but other big slovak cities were also 1/3 or 1/4 german.

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But those aren't Slovak results. Or maybe there is a few ex-Slovaks assimilated into the Hungarians.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

No, can you please link me?

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https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...an#post6359259
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...an#post6359265

one of them is deleted, the other is still on gedmatch
email:

Spoiler!

JUDOMOM47@YAHOO.CA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dunai

And lastly I will post Eastern Hungarian results, starting with the Székely, and in this case I didn't include Maros County, which is only partially part of Székelyföld and many of the locals rather identify as Transylvanian Hungarians, but I did include Bukovina Székelys, who used to live in Suceava County, and fled there from Székelyföld in the 18th century:

https://i.imgur.com/JwveZnC.png

https://i.imgur.com/AW4JTn8.png

Then I will continue with Transylvania, to which besides Maros I also added Máramaros and Szilágy counties, which are only partially part of Partium region:

https://i.imgur.com/Krauq4I.png

And lastly the Csángó people:

https://i.imgur.com/vzrp8Vs.png

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Szekely and Csango looks very mongoloid based on these samples.

Since I have found many samples of Hungarians to which I couldn't verify exactly from which region are they from, but will still be using their results for the brand new Hungarian average, which will also contain individuals from all regions I already posted, except Székely and Csángó:

https://i.imgur.com/V1Ala9F.png

https://i.imgur.com/I7R1DpF.png

https://i.imgur.com/PA32dJj.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dunai

Since I have found many samples of Hungarians to which I couldn't verify exactly from which region are they from, but will still be using their results for the brand new Hungarian average, which will also contain individuals from all regions I already posted, except Székely and Csángó:

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I was just thinking about how someone like my dad who was half Transdanubian, half Ungvar/Maramaros (Alfold?) could fit into your categories. A 'mixed' Hungarian category makes sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dunai

And lastly I will post Eastern Hungarian results, starting with the Székely, and in this case I didn't include Maros County, which is only partially part of Székelyföld and many of the locals rather identify as Transylvanian Hungarians, but I did include Bukovina Székelys, who used to live in Suceava County, and fled there from Székelyföld in the 18th century:

https://i.imgur.com/JwveZnC.png

https://i.imgur.com/AW4JTn8.png

Then I will continue with Transylvania, to which besides Maros I also added Máramaros and Szilágy counties, which are only partially part of Partium region:

https://i.imgur.com/Krauq4I.png

And lastly the Csángó people:

https://i.imgur.com/vzrp8Vs.png

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The Csango from which villages they are from? They are 100% csango?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andre

The Csango from which villages they are from? They are 100% csango?

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Besides what you provided the rest are all Gyimes Csángó, and yes, with the exception of one person who also has Transylvania Hungarian roots, they are 100% Csángó.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr.G

I was just thinking about how someone like my dad who was half Transdanubian, half Ungvar/Maramaros (Alfold?) could fit into your categories. A 'mixed' Hungarian category makes sense.

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Yes, there were cases when I did choose for one side when they were also born in the region from where they have at least one parent, but I found many from whom I couldn't even find any regional information, but based on their names and seeing their results, they looked totally Hungarian, so I included them in the general Hungarian group.

Here is one Hungarian sample I posted before if you're interested: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6359291

I remember posting 1-2 more but can't find them. They're somewhere in the thread but its too huge to navigate through.

Southern/balkan shift of Alföld seem overrated based on these results, but we can make final conclusion when the regional avarages are released.

Btw I wouldn't add Western Romanian(Partium) and Northern Serbian(Vojvodina) results to Alföld category.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universe

Southern/balkan shift of Alföld seem overrated based on these results, but we can make final conclusion when the regional avarages are released.

Btw I wouldn't add Western Romanian(Partium) and Northern Serbian(Vojvodina) results to Alföld category.

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Those regions only in last 100 years stopped to be connected with the Hungarian Alföld (cross marriages still happened though), but they are geographically parts of the historical Alföld, and the Hungarian population there have ancestors from the counties on the Hungarian border. Like Szabolcs-Szatmár-Bereg county is connected with Szatmár county, Hajdú-Bihar with Bihar county, Arad and Temes with Csongrád and Békés, Bács-Kiskun with Bácska. It is also enough to look at family trees of people from these areas, and their grand and great grandparents easily originate at one point from the county which is today on the other side of the border. Also I didn't see major difference between the borders while collecting my samples.

Look at point 7: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alf%C3%B6ld

Agree. Partium and Vojvodina are one unit with proper Alfold, there is no natural border of any kind.
Partium makes much more sense to be with Alfold, it is def. not Transylvania.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Est.1992

Agree. Partium and Vojvodina are one unit with proper Alfold, there is no natural border of any kind.
Partium makes much more sense to be with Alfold, it is def. not Transylvania.

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Transylvania is a very little region in reality. Banat, Partium (Crisana) and Maramures are not part of Transylvania.

I took the freedom to make a tsne plot of Central Eastern Europe K13 data including these Hungarians:
(tsne is not PCA):

https://i.imgur.com/Rbo3l3r.png

@ph2ter
Ukrainian_Leto, lol. I'm not Ukrainian :D
And who is that Chuvash Ural? Do you have that sample or their results?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leto

@ph2ter
Ukrainian_Leto, lol. I'm not Ukrainian :D
And who is that Chuvash Ural? Do you have that sample or their results?

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This is Ukrainian_Leto_mom. Right?
Down is yellow BELORUSIAN_Leto. And your dad down left.
I have only result.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph2ter

This is Ukrainian_Leto_mom. Right?
Down is yellow BELORUSIAN_Leto. And your dad down left.
I have only result.

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My mother is Russian. But don't bother editing that, no big deal.

Please post that result if you have it.