https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGmPJJS3X8 at 1:03:00:
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He said in "Southern Britain not in Northern Britain so not in Scotland that must reflect we think about a 50% population replacement and then of course there's Saxon movements".
So what population could have caused this? Anyway that is really interesting and it will be interesting if he published more on this.
That was the final blow to the Celtic British Beakers hypothesis.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...wo-HA&usqp=CAU
Great.
Mid Bronze Age would be surprisingly early, but that level of replacement doesn't surprise me. I was never convinced by the idea that the Celtic influence in Britain was minor.
Now that we know the replacement rate, should be able to calculate the approximate genetic profile of the invading Celts just in G25, based on Early Bronze Age vs Iron Age/Roman British.
So probably something like:Code:Target: England_CA_EBA
Distance: 3.1945% / 0.03194460
53.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
31.0 TUR_Barcin_N
15.4 WHG
Target: England_MBA
Distance: 3.7488% / 0.03748788
51.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
32.6 TUR_Barcin_N
15.8 WHG
Target: England_IA
Distance: 3.8860% / 0.03886000
49.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
36.6 TUR_Barcin_N
13.8 WHG
Target: England_Roman
Distance: 4.1337% / 0.04133724
48.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
14.6 WHG
45-46% Steppe
40-41% Farmer
12-13% WHG
The forefathers of Insular Celts clearly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley
I wonder what level of replacement will be for Iron Age (some Belgae are said to migrate there), Roman Age and Saxon invasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
Urnfield culture from the continent then.
That likely happened in a lot of places. First the original steppe dispersing directly in countries, then some already settled in Europe acquiring more pre BA ancestry with time, replacing in part the original waves. Lots of turnover, still essentially a process of stabilizing BA and farmers ancestry.
Good point about the Belgae, so the Southern Britons would have been mostly derived from Continental Celts by the time the Romans met them. It's no wonder then that the Romans made the distinction between the 'Maritime' Southern Britons, who were largely the same as Northern Gauls, and the more native 'Interior' Britons, who sound like they kept up an almost Bronze Age lifestyle by comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas
Just to illustrate this, a map made by Mitchellsince1890 on Anthrogenica, of Hallstatt A & B sites, likely representing areas with the greatest early Continental Celtic settlement in Britain. Southern England then had another known influx in the Iron Age from Belgae.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
https://i.postimg.cc/nr5K1CvZ/c8f7e3...c90a76fdc0.png
Celtic migration, right?
So Scotland_LBA are Celts, I was right about this all along.
Urnfield, but not "Celts". Proto-Celts, or part of the Hallstatt/La Tene Celtic ethnogenesis, sure. Nothing before Hallstatt/La Tene is Celtic though. Britain also later received admixture from Hallstatt/La Tene, but it was minor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley
Celts in the Bronze Age, right..Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Yep. Proto-Celtic is older than Proto-Germanic. And the latter also existed in the Bronze Age (Nordic Bronze Age).Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
Proto-Balto-Slavic also dates back to the Bronze Age (see Balto-Slavic specific genetic drift in Baltic BA samples).
All these major language families date back to the Bronze Age (but not to the Early Bronze Age).
Proto-Celtic and Hallstatt/La Tene need to be distinguished though, as they are clearly different. Proto-Celtic Urnfield is only one part of the ancestry of Hallstatt/La Tene. Nordic Bronze Age and Iron Age Germanics, not so much, pretty much continuity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Yes but Urnfield was Proto-Celtic and it brought Celtic languages to the British Isles.Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
Hallstatt/La Tene were just some distinct sub-groups of Celts, not actual Proto-Celts.
And I doubt that this Hallstatt/La Tene admixture even reached places like Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
It was maybe significant in areas of South England but not all over the British Isles.
Picts/Caledonians probably had ~0% of Hallstatt/La Tene admixture, and were just a mix of British Beakers + Urnfield (which brought their language).
Hallstatt A (1200 – 1050 BC) (fits in the MLBA timeframe)Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
Hallstatt B (1050 – 800 BC);
Part of the Urnfield Culture, not Hallstatt culture proper.
Rather Bellbeakers. Later only minor tribes and pots migrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
This fits linguistic evidence too. Brittonic shares some innovations with Gallic that are absent in Gaelic, such as the shift of PIE roots *qu- to *p- (thus 'P-Celtic'). This made some linguists propose a Gallo-Brittonic branch to the exclusion of Gaelic, but the evidence seems to point more to an areal spread of continental innovations through contact. I'd say the massive Urnfield-Hallstatt A movements brought nuclear Celtic (that is, Celtic preserving the PIE *qu- roots) into Britain. The movement lost its momentum due to struggles with the warlike natives and sheer distance so that the demographic impact was concentrated in the southern parts of Britain (thus the preservation of Bronze age atavisms in Ireland and Scotland as you pointed out). These southern areas more densely settled by Celts preserved contact with the continent through the channel, largely sharing later linguistic (shift to Gallic *p- roots in Brittonic), artistic (Iron age La Tène art for example) and cultural innovations (Celtic roundhouses and hillforts, chariots, etc.) with their continental peers. As evidence of these contacts, besides the tribes with the same names on both sides of the channel there's this famous passage from De Bello Gallico:Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
I'd say the demographic impact that we will see in Ireland will be sufficient to induce a language shift. Nevertheless the contact with the richer cultures of the continent may have made Celtic a prestige language in Britain (much like Latin throughout the Roman world) and provided additional stimulus to its adoption by the natives. The later shift to *p- from *qu- in southern Britain may have put an end to the common Insular Celtic stage.Quote:
The druidic order is supposed to have been created in Britain, and to have been brought over from it into Gaul; and now those who desire to gain a more accurate knowledge of that system generally proceed thither for the purpose of studying it.
Why are you so dumb?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
Rather Pre-Germanic. The consensus is that Grimm's law occured during the pre-Roman Iron Age, probably in Jastorf area (even though there are some interesting Uralic parallels to the sound-shifts). Late Proto-Germanic was still spoken in the 3rd century AD despite the wide-ranging distribution of Germanic-speakers at the time so there is no way it is much older than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Scotland LBA is most affinity with current day Ireland and Wales from Mitchell
England: Results of Combined England_Anglo-Saxon, England_CA_EBA, England_IA, England_LBA, England_MBA, England_N, England_Roman
England Neolithic. Has the greatest affinity to present day France & Belgium.
French:Average 22.5%
French_East:Average 19.17%
Belgian:Average 15.83%
English_Cornwall:Average 9.17%
Orcadian:Average 7.5%
English:Average 7.5%
Welsh:Average 6.67%
German:Average 6.67%
Scottish:Average 5%
Dutch:Average 3.33%
Irish:Average 3.33%
Swedish:Average 1.67%
Icelandic:Average 1.67%
Shetlandic:Average 0.83%
Norwegian:Average 0.83%
England Copper Age/Bronze Age. Again NE France/Belgium at the top of the list.
French_East:Average 25.83%
French:Average 20.83%
Belgian:Average 20%
Welsh:Average 10.83%
Norwegian:Average 9.17%
Dutch:Average 6.67%
Orcadian:Average 6.67%
Shetlandic:Average 5%
Swedish:Average 5%
English_Cornwall:Average 4.17%
Irish:Average 1.67%
English:Average 1.67%
Icelandic:Average 0.83%
Scottish:Average 0.83%
German:Average 0%
England Middle Bronze Age (MBA2) For some reason there seems to be a Nordic affinity in the 1500–1000 BC timeframe.
Orcadian:Average 24.17%
Swedish:Average 20.83%
Scottish:Average 16.67%
Icelandic:Average 16.67%
Shetlandic:Average 16.67%
Welsh:Average 15%
Dutch:Average 15%
English_Cornwall:Average 14.17%
Irish:Average 13.33%
Norwegian:Average 10%
English:Average 8.33%
German:Average 0%
French_East:Average 0%
French:Average 0%
Belgian:Average 0%
England Late Bronze Age. Every present day country got 0% for this one. Not sure what to make of that. Maybe there wasn't much genetic impact on present populations from the 1000-700 BC timeframe
England Iron Age (800 BC - 100 AD) There seems to be a Germanic/Celtic mix with no clear pattern. Maybe this is in part from the arrival of the Hallstatt, La Tene, Belgae and then the Germanic Roman auxiliary mixing with the local Britons.
German:Average 21.67%
Irish:Average 20.83%
Swedish:Average 20%
Welsh:Average 18.33%
English:Average 18.33%
Norwegian:Average 17.5%
Scottish:Average 15%
French_East:Average 14.17%
French:Average 13.33%
Belgian:Average 12.5%
Dutch:Average 11.67%
Icelandic:Average 7.5%
Orcadian:Average 5.83%
Shetlandic:Average 5.83%
English_Cornwall:Average 0.83%
England Roman (43 - 400 AD)
German:Average 56.67%
English_Cornwall:Average 40.83%
English:Average 40.83%
Orcadian:Average 36.67%
French:Average 33.33%
Scottish:Average 33.33%
Irish:Average 33.33%
Belgian:Average 32.5%
Dutch:Average 30.83%
Shetlandic:Average 23.33%
French_East:Average 20%
Icelandic:Average 17.5%
Welsh:Average 11.67%
Swedish:Average 11.67%
Norwegian:Average 0%
England Anglo-Saxon No surprise on the first 4, but kind of surprised that present day Welsh is so high on this list. Much higher than the English.
Norwegian:Average 62.5%
Icelandic:Average 55.83%
Shetlandic:Average 48.33%
Swedish:Average 40.83%
Welsh:Average 37.5%
Dutch:Average 32.5%
English_Cornwall:Average 30.83%
Scottish:Average 29.17%
Irish:Average 27.5%
English:Average 23.33%
French_East:Average 20.83%
Orcadian:Average 19.17%
Belgian:Average 19.17%
German:Average 15%
French:Average 10%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scotland: Scotland_CA_EBA, Scotland_LBA, Scotland_MBA, Scotland_N
Scotland Neolithic: Just like in England Neolithic, an affinity to France & Belgium.
French:Average 25%
French_East:Average 22.5%
Belgian:Average 17.5%
German:Average 10.83%
English_Cornwall:Average 8.33%
English:Average 7.5%
Orcadian:Average 5%
Scottish:Average 5%
Dutch:Average 4.17%
Welsh:Average 2.5%
Irish:Average 2.5%
Shetlandic:Average 0.83%
Swedish:Average 0%
Norwegian:Average 0%
Icelandic:Average 0%
Scotland Copper Age/Bronze Age. Like in England during this period, France East is at the top of the list
French_East:Average 42.5%
German:Average 39.17%
Swedish:Average 35.83%
Norwegian:Average 30%
Icelandic:Average 21.67%
Dutch:Average 19.17%
Welsh:Average 19.17%
Belgian:Average 15.83%
French:Average 15%
Orcadian:Average 13.33%
English:Average 10.83%
Scottish:Average 4.17%
English_Cornwall:Average 2.5%
Irish:Average 0%
Shetlandic:Average 0%
Scotland Middle Bronze Age (MBA2) Unlike Middle Bronze Age England which appears to have a Nordic affinity, Scotland has more of a German/Dutch/Eastern France affinity in the 1500–1000 BC timeframe.
German:Average 34.17%
Dutch:Average 33.33%
French_East:Average 25.83%
French:Average 25%
Swedish:Average 23.33%
Norwegian:Average 23.33%
Scottish:Average 23.33%
Icelandic:Average 19.17%
Shetlandic:Average 18.33%
Belgian:Average 15.83%
English:Average 13.33%
English_Cornwall:Average 13.33%
Orcadian:Average 10%
Irish:Average 7.5%
Welsh:Average 0%
Scotland Late Bronze Age. Very strong affinity with the present day "Celtic" regions i.e. Ireland, Wales, and Cornwall. Very different result from England during period
Irish:Average 90%
Shetlandic:Average 80.83%
Welsh:Average 78.33%
English_Cornwall:Average 75.83%
Orcadian:Average 71.67%
English:Average 68.33%
Scottish:Average 67.5%
Icelandic:Average 59.17%
Belgian:Average 50.83%
Norwegian:Average 46.67%
Dutch:Average 43.33%
Swedish:Average 40.83%
French:Average 35%
German:Average 15.83%
French_East:Average 9.17
--------------------------------------------------
Ireland: Ireland_EBA +Ireland_MN. This is probably just present day populations' affinity to Bell Beaker vs Pre Bell Beaker in Ireland
Ireland Middle Neolithic. It appears that present day France might retain more of it's Pre bell beaker ancestry when compared to other areas of NW Europe?
French:Average 31.67%
French_East:Average 28.33%
Belgian:Average 25%
English_Cornwall:Average 18.33%
German:Average 17.5%
English:Average 16.67%
Orcadian:Average 14.17%
Scottish:Average 13.33%
Dutch:Average 12.5%
Irish:Average 12.5%
Welsh:Average 11.67%
Shetlandic:Average 9.17%
Icelandic:Average 7.5%
Norwegian:Average 6.67%
Swedish:Average 6.67%
Ireland Early Bronze Age.
Norwegian:Average 93.33%
Swedish:Average 93.33%
Icelandic:Average 92.5%
Shetlandic:Average 90.83%
Welsh:Average 88.33%
Dutch:Average 87.5%
Irish:Average 87.5%
Scottish:Average 86.67%
Orcadian:Average 85.83%
English:Average 83.33%
German:Average 82.5%
English_Cornwall:Average 81.67%
Belgian:Average 75%
French_East:Average 71.67%
French:Average 68.33%
--------------------------------------------------------
Wales: Wales_CA_EBA +Wales_N
Wales Neolithic: Again present day France seems closer to the original neolithic population than other areas of Northwest Europe.
French:Average 29.17%
French_East:Average 25.83%
Belgian:Average 22.5%
German:Average 15%
English_Cornwall:Average 14.17%
English:Average 12.5%
Dutch:Average 10%
Orcadian:Average 10%
Scottish:Average 10%
Welsh:Average 10%
Irish:Average 9.17%
Shetlandic:Average 6.67%
Icelandic:Average 5%
Norwegian:Average 5%
Swedish:Average 5%
Wales Copper Age/Early Bronze Age: More affinity to present day Nordic countries
Icelandic:Average 95%
Norwegian:Average 95%
Swedish:Average 95%
Shetlandic:Average 93.33%
Irish:Average 90.83%
Dutch:Average 90%
Orcadian: Average 90%
Scottish:Average 90%
Welsh:Average 90%
English:Average 87.5%
English_Cornwall:Average 85.83%
German:Average 85%
Belgian:Average 77.5%
French_East:Average 74.17%
French:Average 70.83%
-------------------------------------------
Finally FWIW, comparing Beaker Britain to Beaker Central Europe
Sample Fit Beaker Britain Beaker Central Europe
French_East:Average 1.0402 0.83% 99.17%
French:Average 1.131 5% 95%
German:Average 1.0824 11.67% 88.33%
Welsh:Average 1.3873 16.67% 83.33%
Belgian:Average 1.1307 19.17% 80.83%
Norwegian:Average 1.5551 32.5% 67.5%
Swedish:Average 1.5483 37.5% 62.5%
English_Cornwall:Average 1.4961 40.83% 59.17%
Dutch:Average 1.3201 43.33% 56.67%
Scottish:Average 1.2249 49.17% 50.83%
English:Average 1.2779 50% 50%
Shetlandic:Average 1.8495 52.5% 47.5%
Icelandic:Average 1.496 54.17% 45.83%
Orcadian:Average 1.0121 54.17% 45.83%
Irish:Average 1.481 56.67% 43.33%
Then you probably think you are very wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
So if you are so, then tell us, what language did Bellbeakers speak, you, o wisest source of wisdom? Hmm...?
I've said it numerous times, the non-Germanic part of modern day English differs from that of Ireland and Scotland. It's more of an Insular-Continetal mix which is even more obvious when looking at uniparentals. R-L21 is much lower in England than elsewhere Britain/Ireland and DF27 and U152 are higher despite all of the Germanic lineages.
Ironically this means that English people have more actual Celtic ancestry than the Irish.
Celtic Football Club need a name change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aren
For sure, English are still more southern shifted than Irish/Scottish despite having a decent chunk of A/S, and A/S samples we have are Scandinavian like genetically. R-L21 is almost non existent in parts of S/E England based off some old stats from the English dna project. Maybe the stats look different now, haven't seen any up to date ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aren
Obviously the Celtic influence in Ireland was via Celtic Britons. The replacement of Bronze Age Irish by Celtic speakers was probably similarly large.
GIGA (garbage in garbage out) some Polack science G25 tool is saying Wales and Cornwall score higher in AS than the standard English -- it must be true ! -- pass the crack cocaine please !:picard1:Quote:
Originally Posted by tipirneni