Genetic Distances to Iron Age Canaanite Samples

I've taken genetic data of the only two Iron Age Canaanite samples from a 2020 DNA study on Canaanite DNA from Israel (The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant; Agranat-Tamir et al. 2020) and I made a K13 distance run using modern Levantine populations consisting of Levantine populations: Lebanese Christians, Lebanese Muslim, Lebanese Druze, Samaritans, Palestinian Christians, Palestinian Muslims, Jordanian Muslims and Syrian Muslims. I also used modern Jews including Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Iraqi Jews, Kurdish Jews, Moroccan Jews, Tunisian Jews, Libyan Jews, Yemenite Jews, Chechnya Mountain Jews, Georgian Jews and Moldovan Jews. The two Iron Age Canaanites in the study were Megiddo_IA:1417 and Abel:I2201. Here are the distance runs (for those that are not familiar with genetic distance runs, the smaller the number the closer in genetics the outgroup is to the target population).



Iron Age sample from Tel Megiddo


https://s12.freeconvert.com/task/611...ddo_IA.PNG.jpg




Iron Age sample from Abel Beth Maacah


https://s96.freeconvert.com/task/611...l%20IA.PNG.jpg



As you can see, the top four closest groups genetically to the Tel Megiddo sample, in order are: #1 Palestinian Muslims, #2 Palestinian Christians, #3 Samaritans and #4 Jordanians and the closest groups genetically to the Abel Beth Maacah sample are the #1 Samaritans, #2 Lebanese Christians, #3 Palestinian Christians and #4 Palestinian Muslims. All Levantine groups used were genetically closer to the ancient samples than all Jewish groups used. Iraqi Jews were the closest Jews in relation to both samples and Ashkenazi Jews were the furthest genetically from both samples. Let's discuss it.

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The image isn't visible

The two samples with G25 (only the top 20 populations)

Distanceto: Levant_Megiddo_IA:I4517
0.02666982 Samaritan
0.03974876 Lebanese_Christian
0.04002367 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.04121079 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.04640117 Karaite_Egypt
0.04735529 Lebanese_Druze
0.04910595 Druze
0.04982760 Iraqi_Jew
0.05179545 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.05182494 Jordanian_B
0.05190980 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05542751 Syrian_West
0.05555264 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.05653229 Syrian_Jew
0.05720268 Cypriot
0.05821434 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.05899895 Palestinian
0.05959488 Jordanian
0.06139334 Iranian_Jew
0.06171172 Syrian

Distanceto: Levant_Abel_IA:I2201
0.02869144 Samaritan
0.03034335 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.03195280 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.03267874 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.03305007 Lebanese_Christian
0.04186073 Druze
0.04236012 Lebanese_Druze
0.04696858 Karaite_Egypt
0.04872562 Cypriot
0.04875126 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04892430 Iraqi_Jew
0.04894483 Syrian_West
0.04920559 Jordanian_B
0.05174550 Syrian_Jew
0.05180827 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.05431164 Jordanian
0.05506877 Palestinian
0.05685472 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.05695429 Cypriot_B
0.05852287 Tunisian_Jew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Voskos

The image isn't visible

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I added the pics again, something went wrong but it's working now

I'm assuming they used a different set of samples for the Palestinians. Maybe the ones in the K13 database I used on Vahaduo were closer than the ones in the G25. I also have Palestinian Christian on the one I used.

It's interesting if you try comparing Leb Muslims to Leb Christians.

Target: Lebanese_Muslim
Distance: 2.3302% / 2.33018917
80.3 Lebanese_Christian
10.0 Kabardin
3.8 Punjabi_Jat
3.1 Swedish
2.8 Ethiopian_Amhara

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leto

The two samples with G25 (only the top 20 populations)

Distanceto: Levant_Megiddo_IA:I4517
0.02666982 Samaritan
0.03974876 Lebanese_Christian
0.04002367 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.04121079 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.04640117 Karaite_Egypt
0.04735529 Lebanese_Druze
0.04910595 Druze
0.04982760 Iraqi_Jew
0.05179545 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.05182494 Jordanian_B
0.05190980 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05542751 Syrian_West
0.05555264 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.05653229 Syrian_Jew
0.05720268 Cypriot
0.05821434 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.05899895 Palestinian
0.05959488 Jordanian
0.06139334 Iranian_Jew
0.06171172 Syrian

Distanceto: Levant_Abel_IA:I2201
0.02869144 Samaritan
0.03034335 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.03195280 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.03267874 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.03305007 Lebanese_Christian
0.04186073 Druze
0.04236012 Lebanese_Druze
0.04696858 Karaite_Egypt
0.04872562 Cypriot
0.04875126 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04892430 Iraqi_Jew
0.04894483 Syrian_West
0.04920559 Jordanian_B
0.05174550 Syrian_Jew
0.05180827 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.05431164 Jordanian
0.05506877 Palestinian
0.05685472 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.05695429 Cypriot_B
0.05852287 Tunisian_Jew

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Distanceto: Levant_Megiddo_IA:I4517
0.07170691 Sephardic_Jew
0.07611385 Italian_Jew
0.08454254 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.09177819 Ashkenazi_Poland

Distanceto: Levant_Abel_IA:I2201
0.06965729 Sephardic_Jew
0.07188294 Italian_Jew
0.07854816 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.08833637 Ashkenazi_Poland

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leto

Distanceto: Levant_Megiddo_IA:I4517
0.07170691 Sephardic_Jew
0.07611385 Italian_Jew
0.08454254 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.09177819 Ashkenazi_Poland

Distanceto: Levant_Abel_IA:I2201
0.06965729 Sephardic_Jew
0.07188294 Italian_Jew
0.07854816 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.08833637 Ashkenazi_Poland

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Levant-jewish pca https://s40.freeconvert.com/task/611...%20pca.PNG.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leto

The two samples with G25 (only the top 20 populations)

Distanceto: Levant_Megiddo_IA:I4517
0.02666982 Samaritan
0.03974876 Lebanese_Christian
0.04002367 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.04121079 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.04640117 Karaite_Egypt
0.04735529 Lebanese_Druze
0.04910595 Druze
0.04982760 Iraqi_Jew
0.05179545 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.05182494 Jordanian_B
0.05190980 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05542751 Syrian_West
0.05555264 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.05653229 Syrian_Jew
0.05720268 Cypriot
0.05821434 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.05899895 Palestinian
0.05959488 Jordanian
0.06139334 Iranian_Jew
0.06171172 Syrian

Distanceto: Levant_Abel_IA:I2201
0.02869144 Samaritan
0.03034335 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.03195280 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.03267874 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.03305007 Lebanese_Christian
0.04186073 Druze
0.04236012 Lebanese_Druze
0.04696858 Karaite_Egypt
0.04872562 Cypriot
0.04875126 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04892430 Iraqi_Jew
0.04894483 Syrian_West
0.04920559 Jordanian_B
0.05174550 Syrian_Jew
0.05180827 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.05431164 Jordanian
0.05506877 Palestinian
0.05685472 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.05695429 Cypriot_B
0.05852287 Tunisian_Jew

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Did you see a gedmatch kit number for these two iron age samples? I'd like to plot them on the K15 PCA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isleño

Did you see a gedmatch kit number for these two iron age samples? I'd like to plot them on the K15 PCA

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No. I don't even know if they are on Gedmatch. I'd say G25 is more suitable for that type of samples.

I'm surprised in general other canaanite samples tend to be closer to samaritans and palestinian christians. As for ashkenazi jews nothing surprising, I don't understand why people keep pushing the idea of them being MEs...they are literally a modern version of Philistines lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leto

No. I don't even know if they are on Gedmatch. I'd say G25 is more suitable for that type of samples.

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I plotted the two Iron Age Canaanite samples with Levantines and Jews and ran some distance runs with them as well.



Here is the distance run to the iron age sample Abel:12201


https://i.ibb.co/jvPqfKV/Abel-IA.png




Here is the distance run to the iron age sample Megiddo_IA:14517


https://i.ibb.co/WkbC9tv/Megiddo-IA.png



And here is a PCA I made with a the two iron age Canaanites, Levantines and Jews:


https://i.ibb.co/Ykcy6zs/Canaanite-Levant-Jew-PCA.png



The PCA is probably too small to read in the pic I posted, so here is a link to the PCA that will blow it up bigger to see: https://ibb.co/Fw509ST

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isleño

I plotted the two Iron Age Canaanite samples with Levantines and Jews and ran some distance runs with them as well.

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Great. They seem to be even more southern than modern Levantines. How much East Med and Red Sea do they score?

Obvious proof that Palestinians are the real Jews, native to the land...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RogueState

Obvious proof that Palestinians are the real Jews, native to the land...

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Well the Palestinians are the native people of the land and you can see that they cluster with other Levantines such as Lebanese, Jordanians and Syrians and also show the closest distance to the ancient Canaanite samples. We know that much now. But I wouldn’t call Palestinians as Jews because of a DNA test result that matches Canaanites, a people that existed in Israel/Palestine (Canaan) before the arrival of the Hebrew ancestors of the ancient Jews.

All this test tells us is that Palestinians and other Levantines are the closest to the original ancient Canaanites that predated Hebrews in Israel/Palestine. That means they are very native. And that’s where we should leave it until ancient Hebrews are tested against these modern populations.

I was previously aware the Israeli Jews in general are not actual Judahites just from reading the Bible, but these tests were very interesting to see.

I see the modern Druze are moderately close to the ancient samples as well, which makes sense because the anomolous X mtdna was determined to be a product of the bronze age near east since they have genetically isolated themselves from a time when the haplogroup was more common in the area. The Druze are described as a snapshot of circa bronze age near east.

(Side note on the Druze: interesting phenotypes you see there.
Attachment 115780

Attachment 115781

Attachment 115782
I wish they recorded more specific information, like which phenotypes presented the X2 maternal haplogroup. If anyone knows where to find this, please let me know. How likely is it that those who share a haplogroup will share phenotypes, and also either way- is that necessarily the case? I'm still figuring out how this stuff works.)

Anyways, I would be interested to hear if you have any comment concerning the ancient paternal or maternal haplogroups of the area, and specifically X mtdna? I have been curious about X2 maternal haplogroup since it is so rare and associated with many geographical anomalies that make it hard to believe we have a complete picture of history. I know most usually use history to piece together genetics, but maybe we can use genetics to help piece together history in wierd cases like this. What else are we to do with this haplogroup?
In short, it only shows up in significant quantities in certain genetically isolated groups like the Druze, the "Native" Americans, the Basques, and the Hutterites, it is very widespread geographically both in modern and ancient times being the mtdna of ancient samples found anywhere from Europe, to the middle east, to North America, and found all throughout modern Europe as well but with extremely low frequency. Does any of this mean anything to you?

Thank you in advance if you are interested in providing your thoughts. I figured you might have some since this is an old post and you are back to it :) but sorry if I'm bothering you with my questions lol.

I also researched the sites from which you found your samples, there's other interesting archeological finds there, like this figurine:
Attachment 115783

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isleño

I've taken genetic data of the only two Iron Age Canaanite samples from a 2020 DNA study on Canaanite DNA from Israel (The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant; Agranat-Tamir et al. 2020) and I made a K13 distance run using modern Levantine populations consisting of Levantine populations: Lebanese Christians, Lebanese Muslim, Lebanese Druze, Samaritans, Palestinian Christians, Palestinian Muslims, Jordanian Muslims and Syrian Muslims. I also used modern Jews including Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Iraqi Jews, Kurdish Jews, Moroccan Jews, Tunisian Jews, Libyan Jews, Yemenite Jews, Chechnya Mountain Jews, Georgian Jews and Moldovan Jews. The two Iron Age Canaanites in the study were Megiddo_IA:1417 and Abel:I2201. Here are the distance runs (for those that are not familiar with genetic distance runs, the smaller the number the closer in genetics the outgroup is to the target population).



Iron Age sample from Tel Megiddo


https://s12.freeconvert.com/task/611...ddo_IA.PNG.jpg




Iron Age sample from Abel Beth Maacah


https://s96.freeconvert.com/task/611...l%20IA.PNG.jpg



As you can see, the top four closest groups genetically to the Tel Megiddo sample, in order are: #1 Palestinian Muslims, #2 Palestinian Christians, #3 Samaritans and #4 Jordanians and the closest groups genetically to the Abel Beth Maacah sample are the #1 Samaritans, #2 Lebanese Christians, #3 Palestinian Christians and #4 Palestinian Muslims. All Levantine groups used were genetically closer to the ancient samples than all Jewish groups used. Iraqi Jews were the closest Jews in relation to both samples and Ashkenazi Jews were the furthest genetically from both samples. Let's discuss it.

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every body knows that. Here is the clustering of Jews + some middle east population.
https://i.ibb.co/Ms1dNj0/Genetic-cluster-Jew.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isleño

Well the Palestinians are the native people of the land and you can see that they cluster with other Levantines such as Lebanese, Jordanians and Syrians and also show the closest distance to the ancient Canaanite samples. We know that much now. But I wouldn’t call Palestinians as Jews because of a DNA test result that matches Canaanites, a people that existed in Israel/Palestine (Canaan) before the arrival of the Hebrew ancestors of the ancient Jews.

All this test tells us is that Palestinians and other Levantines are the closest to the original ancient Canaanites that predated Hebrews in Israel/Palestine. That means they are very native. And that’s where we should leave it until ancient Hebrews are tested against these modern populations.

---

Jews came from where ?
The Bible is not an history book. The Hebrews were Canaanites with a different religion, they did not come from Egypt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isleño

Well the Palestinians are the native people of the land and you can see that they cluster with other Levantines such as Lebanese, Jordanians and Syrians and also show the closest distance to the ancient Canaanite samples. We know that much now. But I wouldn’t call Palestinians as Jews because of a DNA test result that matches Canaanites, a people that existed in Israel/Palestine (Canaan) before the arrival of the Hebrew ancestors of the ancient Jews.

All this test tells us is that Palestinians and other Levantines are the closest to the original ancient Canaanites that predated Hebrews in Israel/Palestine. That means they are very native. And that’s where we should leave it until ancient Hebrews are tested against these modern populations.

---

Jews came from where ?
The Bible is not an history book. The Hebrews were Canaanites with a different religion, they did not come from Egypt.

Interesting how they concluded they are canaanites if they are virtually extinct during Iron Age. Iron Age was the Judges-David-Salomonic rule, plus the presence of arameans, hitittes, philistians, assyrians, babilonians, persians and even greeks...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sacrificed Ram

Interesting how they concluded they are canaanites if they are virtually extinct during Iron Age. Iron Age was the Judges-David-Salomonic rule, plus the presence of arameans, hitittes, philistians, assyrians, babilonians, persians and even greeks...

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for sure they are not
1. Persian because they are not in the persian cluster
2. Greek because they are not in the greek cluster
3. Philistine because they are not in the south European cluster (for instance, they have found 3 samples that are shifted to Europeans and they conclude that they were philistines)
4. Aramaan ? it is difficult to make genetic differences with Canaanites.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amazigh_Morocco

for sure they are not
1. Persian because they are not in the persian cluster
2. Greek because they are not in the greek cluster
3. Philistine because they are not in the south European cluster (for instance, they have found 3 samples that are shifted to Europeans and they conclude that they were philistines)
4. Aramaan ? it is difficult to make genetic differences with Canaanites.

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1 - It is a circular fallacy:

"This sample is canaanite because cluster palestines, palestines are canaanites because cluster this sample."

2 - Canaanite isn't exactly a very correct historic/scientific term, because of it the study call them "Levant", not "Canaanite".

3 - The thread's creator is looking doing political/religious biased propaganda calling them "canaanites", there are more important things to do with money of american contributor, like send it to Ukraine, not to sponsor illogical crap.

4 - Try to read Bible in its original, not distorted translations of already lagged Vulgata.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sacrificed Ram

1 - It is a circular fallacy:

"This sample is canaanite because cluster palestines, palestines are canaanites because cluster this sample."

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Nope

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sacrificed Ram

2 - Canaanite isn't exactly a very correct historic/scientific term, because of it the study call them "Levant", not "Canaanite".

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call it whatever you want, you can just call it "autochtonous population of Palestine/Israel during the Iron age".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sacrificed Ram

3 - The thread's creator is looking doing political/religious biased propaganda calling them "canaanites", there are more important things to do with money of american contributor, like send it to Ukraine, not to sponsor illogical crap..

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you do politics and religion, not the thread's creator.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sacrificed Ram

4 - Try to read Bible in its original, not distorted translations of already lagged Vulgata.

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I am atheist, I don't trust the bible or any religious book.
The universe was not created in 6 days.

So from your post, I can conclude that you are jewish or christian, you believe in God and you consider palestinians as non-native of the land.
so you do politics and religion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amazigh_Morocco

Nope

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Elaborate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amazigh_Morocco

call it whatever you want, you can just call it "autochtonous population of Palestine/Israel during the Iron age".

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Did not existed "autochtonous population" in Levant during iron age, but a great disturbance of population. Assyrians, babilonians and achemenids had the politic of exile and resettlement, many peoples were moved out Levant, while others were brought. At least it historic records tell us...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amazigh_Morocco

you do politics and religion, not the thread's creator.

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It is clear, the study call these samples "Levant", not "Canaanites".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amazigh_Morocco

I am atheist, I don't trust the bible or any religious book.
The universe was not created in 6 days.

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Protestants read the Bible literally.

Despite catholics consider the Bible sacred and divine inspirited, they see and interpret the texts as allegories, some times not a real fact. Catholics rely in clerical authority and catechism to ratify the applicability of some text.

Today catholics are even using new translations of Bible, like Jerusalem Bible, following new understanding of their faith.

Catholics dont believe in six day created universe literally, they see Genesis as an allegory. CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amazigh_Morocco

So from your post, I can conclude that you are jewish or christian, you believe in God.

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I am more radical than an atheist, I am ignostic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amazigh_Morocco

you consider palestinians as non-native of the land

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Migration is a precept in Al'Quran, so many muslim claim with pride they came from distant lands to preach Islam, to claim be 'native' isn't the normal behavior of a muslim. Also as brazilian, most of my ancestry is non native to these lands, I just claim current usufructuarity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amazigh_Morocco

so you do politics and religion.

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With my own money, not with the money of contributor.

State to sponsor some religion is NAZIFASCISM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sacrificed Ram

Elaborate.



Did not existed "autochtonous population" in Levant during iron age, but a great disturbance of population. Assyrians, babilonians and achemenids had the politic of exile and resettlement, many peoples were moved out Levant, while others were brought. At least it historic records tell us...



It is clear, the study call these samples "Levant", not "Canaanites".




Protestants read the Bible literally.

Despite catholics consider the Bible sacred and divine inspirited, they see and interpret the texts as allegories, some times not a real fact. Catholics rely in clerical authority and catechism to ratify the applicability of some text.

Today catholics are even using new translations of Bible, like Jerusalem Bible, following new understanding of their faith.

Catholics dont believe in six day created universe literally, they see Genesis as an allegory. CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION.





I am more radical than an atheist, I am ignostic.



Migration is a precept in Al'Quran, so many muslim claim with pride they came from distant lands to preach Islam, to claim be 'native' isn't the normal behavior of a muslim. Also as brazilian, most of my ancestry is non native to these lands, I just claim current usufructuarity.



With my own money, not with the money of contributor.

State to sponsor some religion is NAZIFASCISM.

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Please speak with data ! I can build a PCA map for those populations, but would you be able to think outside your religious belief ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amazigh_Morocco

Please speak with data ! I can build a PCA map for those populations, but would you be able to think outside your religious belief ?

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here is a genetic map and I have not added Ethiopian Jews and Cochin Jews that are very very very far from Canaanites.
https://i.ibb.co/YjkM6Lg/Vahaduo-Custom-PCA-details.png

and here 2 studies who confirm the Canaanites and Philistines of the samples discovered in Ashkelon, Abel and Meggido.
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...showall%3Dtrue
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aax0061

if you want to reproduce the map.
here are the data

https://sharetext.me/ybpyzavxlu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amazigh_Morocco

Please speak with data !

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I don't need work with data, if this thread even never transposed the logical level.

But if you want...
https://i.ibb.co/VDckbZV/file.png
https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1003316

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sacrificed Ram

I don't need work with data, if this thread even never transposed the logical level.

But if you want...
https://i.ibb.co/VDckbZV/file.png
https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1003316

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you don't know how PCA works !
if you do a world PCA you can't get the accurate distance in a graph.
PCA is a projection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amazigh_Morocco

you don't know how PCA works !
if you do a world PCA you can't get the accurate distance in a graph.
PCA is a projection.

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My (posted) map has the same population as the map you posted...

You can see obviously palestinians overlapping saudis in my map, while they overlap levantine christian in your map.

You are just appealing for ignorance of PCA by the watchers of this thread.