This concerns French people of European ancestry. Please add your knowledge. Thank you. In my opinion, French are equally all those roots.
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This concerns French people of European ancestry. Please add your knowledge. Thank you. In my opinion, French are equally all those roots.
Obviously a combination of the three in variable proportions depending on the regions. Also a significant paleolithic (basque) admixture, especially in the south-west.
Overwhelmingly Celtic, they plot basically like ancient Gauls.
It remains a mystery though how an ancient population of millions could be so totally Romanised as to wipe out the native Celtic culture without corresponding mass migration and genetic influx from Italy/Southern Europe.
They’re basically the exact same as the Iron Age Gauls, very little Germanic or Latin influence despite what people say.
Mostly continental Celtic
An interesting topic, so I created a model generally based on the 400–200 BC period, with the exception of Eastern European ones. I skipped the English sample because I’m not sure how to assign it.
https://i.ibb.co/8LzTgPkL/Zrzut-ekra...-github-io.jpgQuote:
France_Occitanie_IA2,0.132604,0.138112,0.052985,0. 0240635,0.0500095,0.012411,-0.00141,-0.004269,0.020452,0.0191345,-0.003897,0.0096665,-0.018137,-0.014794,0.019001,0.009613,0.0012385,0.0107685,-0.0076675,-0.0097545,0.003931,0.003215,-0.00684,-0.005121,0.0006585
France_Oise_IA,0.1286203,0.1391273,0.0649903,0.046 2967,0.037648,0.017756,0.0008617,0.0115377,0.01002 2,0.0012757,-0.0020027,0.0038963,-0.0151137,-0.0130743,0.0125313,0.0086187,-0.0032163,0.0019003,-0.0050277,0.0015423,0.0052407,-0.003957,-0.0022593,0.0045387,-0.00471
France_SouthEast_IA2,0.1281648,0.147658,0.0604902, 0.0141474,0.047578,0.0003348,0.001269,0.003923,0.0 194708,0.034333,-0.0003572,0.013548,-0.0187018,-0.0118078,0.010179,0.0011402,-0.0010428,0.0019256,0.0010308,0.0017006,0.0037684, 0.0043276,-0.005768,-0.0018556,-0.0014848
France_HautsDeFrance_IA,0.1200832,0.1406508,0.0578 878,0.036822,0.0409308,0.0128985,-0.0012338,0.0032308,0.0103795,0.0121188,-0.0036942,0.0111275,-0.020032,-0.011629,0.01839,0.0018565,-0.0105938,0.006271,0.004808,-0.001063,0.0060208,0.0064298,0.0030195,0.0006025,0 .001437
France_GrandEst_IA2,0.127994,0.1398384,0.0546637,0 .0330268,0.0421308,0.0097193,0.0031022,0.0036689,0 .0097558,0.0146974,-0.0024846,0.0053728,-0.0131936,-0.0083744,0.0124388,-0.0022274,-0.0107894,0.0017926,0.0030043,-0.0005128,0.0022087,0.0021084,-0.0010352,-0.0024461,0.0002814
France_BasRhin_IA.SG:ERS83-2.SG__BC_250__Cov_20.23%,0.130897,0.15436,0.052043 ,0.012274,0.044931,-0.000837,-0.008225,0.004154,0.019839,0.030798,0.001461,0.005 095,-0.016055,0.004266,0.000407,0.001061,-0.002999,0.008361,-0.002388,-0.002251,0.006489,0.009398,-0.007395,-0.009278,-0.008143
France_Bourgogne-Franche-Comté_Vix_LaTene_IA,0.127482,0.141497,0.054054,0.0 253017,0.046983,0.0069723,-0.0025067,0.0039227,0.0157483,0.0241767,-0.001299,0.0052453,-0.0155103,-0.0034867,0.0060623,-0.00137,-0.006693,0.0024073,-0.000503,-0.0007087,0.004118,0.001525,-0.001438,-0.0022087,0.0020353
France_Aude_IA,0.1324142,0.1474208,0.057448,0.0152 348,0.0529328,0.0024637,-0.0010183,0.0026537,0.0233498,0.0341085,-0.0041407,0.009017,-0.020837,-0.0144047,0.0103825,0.0032707,-0.0017168,0.0023227,0.0026397,-0.0038977,0.0085475,0.0007212,-0.0066963,-0.0037955,-0.0010178
France_Aube_IA,0.1263435,0.142682,0.0697675,0.0332 69,0.051548,0.0124105,0.00752,0.0065765,0.020043,0 .0105695,-0.0113675,0.00577,-0.0158325,-0.017065,0.0173045,0.0014585,-0.011539,0.003991,-0.001194,0.00544,0.0043045,0.010016,-0.0028965,-0.007712,0.004311
France_Aisne_IA,0.129189,0.146744,0.0607165,0.0198 645,0.038161,0.008227,0.005053,0.0008075,0.00767,0 .012665,-0.007795,0.008992,-0.0172445,-0.0008255,0.0122145,0.0059665,0.0021515,-0.0022805,0.015901,-0.001563,0.0039925,0.004699,-0.012941,0.005061,-0.0111965
France_HautRhin_IA,0.126913,0.153853,0.0486485,0.0 20349,0.0524715,0.0154785,0.0058755,-0.0075,0.017998,0.028702,0.0043845,0.003447,-0.0043855,-0.0030965,0.0111965,0.0147835,0.0070405,-0.0013935,0.004651,0.002689,0.0131015,0.0137255,-0.0153445,-0.001928,-0.0026345
Lithuania_North_Šiauliai_Barrows_IA:CGG017688__AD_ 77__Cov_29.03%,0.1161,0.122879,0.093903,0.104329,0 .06155,0.037371,0.00893,0.013153,0.000818,-0.036083,-0.001949,-0.015586,0.021258,0.019818,-0.012893,0.016706,0.033118,-0.008235,-0.004399,0.00963,-0.004118,-0.014962,0.012941,-0.011809,0.002275
Spain_IA,0.1237419,0.1492827,0.0564603,0.0037837,0 .0581649,-0.0057371,-0.0034914,0.0065601,0.0356454,0.0443616,-0.0006961,0.0089491,-0.0247201,-0.0190313,0.0095391,0.0118381,0.010524,-0.003149,0.003735,-0.0004466,0.0054724,-0.002579,-0.0042961,-0.0109997,-0.0008726
Italy_Verona_LIA,0.1247312,0.1482673,0.0487114,0.0 049527,0.0482398,-0.0032538,-0.0022521,0.0028075,0.0207591,0.0328026,-0.0022058,0.0069938,-0.0181118,-0.0079018,0.0036532,-0.0000996,0.0026294,0.0033678,0.0056146,-0.0041792,-0.0013829,0.0025142,-0.0024958,-0.0020886,-0.0017862
Italy_IA_Republic.SG:R435.SG__BC_400__Cov_70.82%,0 .125205,0.146236,0.044877,0.002584,0.046778,0.0061 36,-0.00094,0.004846,0.023929,0.040639,-0.004872,0.009142,-0.020664,-0.015414,0.013708,-0.002254,-0.000652,0.004941,0.004022,-0.003126,0.002496,0.002226,-0.005669,0.000241,-0.003353
Tunisia_Carthage_Punic,0.09553,0.1531999,-0.0022089,-0.0557175,0.0250595,-0.0238451,-0.0038775,-0.0000825,0.0219716,0.0349633,0.0028186,0.0019054,-0.0057341,-0.005672,-0.0067956,-0.002955,0.0019093,0.0017827,0.0016521,-0.0010364,-0.0036899,-0.0015192,0.0007924,-0.0039934,-0.0010264
Poland_Maslomecz_Wielbark_IA.SG(Slavic):PCA0103.SG __AD_194__Cov_74.66%,0.130897,0.131003,0.076178,0. 072029,0.042469,0.021753,0.008695,0.014076,0.00286 3,-0.017495,-0.000974,-0.006894,0.00996,0.01734,-0.003529,-0.011535,-0.013821,-0.005448,0.005531,0.006503,0.005989,0.002226,-0.000123,-0.007471,-0.006347
Netherlands_MIA_LIA.AG,0.131466,0.1310035,0.058076 5,0.0534565,0.0398535,0.016315,0.005875,0.0013845, 0.0054195,0.0011845,0.002111,0.0160355,-0.008474,-0.010184,0.0185255,0.0015915,-0.005085,0.0002535,0.0035195,0.0061905,0.010731,0. 011994,-0.0040675,0.0100015,-0.0076045
Denmark_PreRoman_IA:,0.127536,0.1335179,0.0692824, 0.0626928,0.0438176,0.0208371,0.0050135,0.0088239, 0.0033016,-0.0082354,-0.007841,0.0043534,-0.0061164,-0.0057211,0.019951,0.0057456,-0.0115794,0.0023407,0.0026636,0.005443,0.00675,0.0 041748,0.0001467,0.0095538,-0.0012374
https://i.ibb.co/Tx0JyZpf/Zrzut-ekra...-github-io.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/BHGr97hC/Zrzut-ekra...-github-io.jpg
It may be interpreted differently depending on the distance.
It's possible that large Roman and Germanic influence has cancelled one another out and makes them artificially closer to Gauls than they are. To some extent this is true for the English, being artificially close to ancient Britons despite it being a minority of their ancestry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Birchy
I think no one has addressed this before, but France's Iron Age appears to be more Northern shifted than Southern Germany's Iron Age.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Ketch
The main takeaway from this is the the (relative) Northern shift of the Northern French and the Walloons doesn't require any additional Germanic ancestry. Their own population from the Iron Age has enough "Northerness" to make up for it.
https://i.postimg.cc/vGSvCcDX/Fr.jpgCode:Germany_West-Hallstattkreis_EIA(n=22),0.125723,0.143744,0.051803,0.018396,0.046078,0.003499,0.000299,0.003671,0.014809,0.023881,-0.002768,0.007705,-0.016387,-0.008833,0.003671,0.003646,0.000604,0.001491,0.004257,-0.000682,0.002376,0.003839,0.000482,-0.001117,-0.000354
France_GrandEst_IA1.SG,0.1233842,0.14583,0.0551352,0.0204782,0.0408074,-0.0001672,-0.0033372,0.0064614,0.0155028,0.0165472,-0.0018512,0.0083028,-0.0170664,-0.0113952,0.0121332,0.0041368,-0.0007042,-0.0004816,0.0024134,0.0048274,0.0010484,-0.0005194,-0.009564,-0.0019522,-0.0021074
France_GrandEst_IA2,0.1277096,0.1367916,0.057624,0.0362406,0.0469625,0.0108209,0.005499,0.0028846,0.0085288,0.0121734,-0.0034263,0.0071935,-0.0125322,-0.008794,0.0130562,-0.0031025,-0.0104828,0.0017104,0.0024637,-0.0009129,0.0050038,0.0049585,-0.0013803,-0.0012772,-0.0015806
France_GrandEst_IA2.SG,0.1270264,0.1470486,0.050308,0.0319124,0.0350218,0.0097054,-0.001504,0.0066458,0.006504,0.014287,-0.0005196,-0.0015286,-0.0125768,-0.0069636,0.0104232,0.000451,-0.0093616,-0.0007856,0.0045002,-0.0015758,-0.0027702,0.0054902,0.002046,-0.0082902,0.0022512
France_HautsDeFrance_IA2.SG,0.1160995,0.141666,0.0482715,0.038114,0.0460085,0.0161755,-0.0057575,0.004846,0.0114535,0.018406,-0.0021925,0.006594,-0.021184,-0.0124545,0.0109255,0.002917,-0.002021,0.009755,0.007856,-0.003189,0.0010605,0.006121,0.010106,-0.002169,0.0032335
French_Alsace,0.127311,0.140372,0.050317,0.022432,0.038423,0.008911,0.00292,0.004875,0.006852,0.010679,-0.003134,0.004578,-0.009444,-0.00417,0.008561,0.003066,-0.004893,0.002439,0.003243,-0.000716,0.002764,0.001156,-0.001322,0.007137,-0.000314
French_Auvergne,0.125416,0.144656,0.04742,0.012992,0.043472,0.003997,-0.000339,0.002513,0.015407,0.022172,-0.002466,0.007355,-0.013969,-0.009669,0.008299,0.001483,-0.000787,0.001497,0.003073,-0.000213,0.001858,0.003737,-0.002282,0.001816,-8.9e-05
French_Bearn,0.126799,0.144814,0.053589,0.006008,0.053949,0.002175,-0.001692,-0.002054,0.024461,0.039891,-0.008866,0.010236,-0.018999,-0.014327,0.014169,0.001578,-0.005724,-0.000899,-0.001735,-0.003302,0.005465,0.003141,-0.006643,-0.00817,0.000683
French_Bigorre,0.128051,0.147353,0.052269,0.00533,0.052225,-0.000837,-0.001669,0.000162,0.024809,0.03827,-0.003085,0.007883,-0.021481,-0.014148,0.00874,0.000186,-0.003559,0.002369,-0.000892,-0.002914,0.002508,-0.00089,-0.003291,-0.005904,0.00103
French_Chalosse,0.128734,0.14776,0.051892,0.011176,0.051333,0.002761,0.00047,0.001777,0.025259,0.039655,-0.002696,0.008947,-0.020337,-0.015083,0.011088,0.002824,-0.005424,0.001672,-0.000779,-0.002239,0.008273,0.002844,-0.007691,-0.007664,-0.002096
French_Nord,0.128275,0.140543,0.051357,0.025605,0.038273,0.008891,0.001097,0.00442,0.008373,0.012016,-0.003484,0.004033,-0.010861,-0.008182,0.011199,0.002543,-0.004607,0.002227,0.004095,0.001031,0.002133,0.001525,-0.001572,0.007471,1.4e-05
French_Occitanie,0.127039,0.144883,0.048879,0.017908,0.043376,0.003416,0.000522,0.003891,0.014856,0.023589,-0.003288,0.006582,-0.015044,-0.009458,0.010737,0.002567,-0.003709,0.002484,0.001425,4.5e-05,0.003671,0.002446,-0.00255,0.001767,0.000422
French_Paris,0.127171,0.141436,0.050431,0.02399,0.040903,0.009305,0.002799,0.005454,0.011602,0.018174,-0.007706,0.006812,-0.012906,-0.010384,0.01377,0.006063,-0.001825,0.004664,0.002708,-0.000978,0.002201,0.003575,-0.001232,0.011141,-0.001905
French_Pas-de-Calais,0.127861,0.140481,0.054305,0.026809,0.042162,0.012736,0.004152,0.001308,0.008522,0.012453,-0.008011,0.002198,-0.01001,-0.012019,0.013663,0.008132,-0.000478,0.001816,-0.003645,0.004252,0.009982,0.001443,-0.002547,0.005904,-0.001437
French_Provence,0.121925,0.143847,0.036891,0.005358,0.036858,0.00233,0.002267,0.003638,0.010058,0.020453,-0.003869,0.007211,-0.012138,-0.010961,0.005956,0.003174,0.001097,0.002809,0.001775,-0.001515,0.001541,0.002735,0.000355,0.005444,3.5e-05
French_Seine-Maritime,0.136019,0.137096,0.045254,0.029555,0.039084,0.016733,0.00423,-0.000692,0.003988,0.006014,-0.003735,0.007493,-0.007582,-0.001651,0.014251,0.003514,-0.007953,-0.002344,0.000943,-0.005002,0.003931,0.005503,0.000863,0.004278,-0.004491
French_South,0.126181,0.144785,0.049618,0.00886,0.050691,0.002669,0.000269,0.002275,0.02764,0.03866,-0.006774,0.007365,-0.021853,-0.013566,0.010373,0.002765,-0.005104,0.001792,0.000215,0.001912,0.004991,-0.00083,-0.005264,-0.007557,-0.00142
BelgianC,0.126875,0.142987,0.053249,0.023149,0.040582,0.009501,0.00141,0.004738,0.010826,0.014397,-0.003161,0.006314,-0.012269,-0.009303,0.012034,0.001715,-0.004955,0.001098,0.001592,0.000367,0.002729,0.002844,-0.001142,0.009335,-0.001932
According to the Germanic Y-DNA maps Northern France has a fair amount of Germanic influence, for them to be more Neolithic shifted than Iron Age Gauls I would think implies a non-trivial Roman genetic influence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvanas
According to Eupedia France has over 20% of I1-M253, R1b-U106, R1b-L238, R1a and Q haplogroups.
Which I counted as Germanic in my datasheet (link below), but maybe Ancient Gauls already had it?:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Latin more dominant in Southern parts of France, while Central and Northern parts are mixture of Latin, Celtic and Germanic elements.
They are Latin+Celtic but with Germanic and Slavic minorities. They get Slavics from the French Foreign Legions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Septentrion
I haven't taken DNA test yet, but from what I have seen from results online and some studies, it seems mostly Celtic, with some regional variation. The border has usually been around the Loire River. When it comes to ancestral proportions, some studies have identified few regional clusters, but the exact number can vary depending on the method used.
https://i.postimg.cc/5NvJYpnn/41431-...-Fig4-HTML.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/3rz7xzCT/41431-...-Fig1-HTML.jpg
Distance to: CDG_scaledQuote:
Originally Posted by cass
0.02801249 Denmark_PreRoman_IA:
0.02965168 France_Oise_IA
0.03054121 Netherlands_MIA_LIA.AG
0.03492328 France_HautsDeFrance_IA
0.03685277 France_GrandEst_IA2
0.04486993 France_Aube_IA
0.05069311 France_Bourgogne-Franche-Comté_Vix_LaTene_IA
0.05172048 France_Aisne_IA
0.05840649 France_Occitanie_IA2
0.06409513 Poland_Maslomecz_Wielbark_IA.SG(Slavic):PCA0103.SG __AD_194__Cov_74.66%
0.06464407 France_SouthEast_IA2
0.06690445 France_Aude_IA
0.07144860 France_HautRhin_IA
0.07410427 Italy_Verona_LIA
0.07487411 France_BasRhin_IA.SG:ERS83-2.SG__BC_250__Cov_20.23%
0.07588987 Italy_IA_Republic.SG:R435.SG__BC_400__Cov_70.82%
0.09125223 Spain_IA
0.12017677 Lithuania_North_Šiauliai_Barrows_IA:CGG017688__AD_ 77__Cov_29.03%
0.14944702 Tunisia_Carthage_Punic
Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 2.1211% / 0.02121105
63.0 Denmark_PreRoman_IA:
10.6 France_GrandEst_IA2
9.0 Italy_IA_Republic.SG:R435.SG__BC_400__Cov_70.82%
7.2 France_HautsDeFrance_IA
6.6 Netherlands_MIA_LIA.AG
3.6 France_Oise_IA
Distance to: CDG_scaledQuote:
Originally Posted by Sylvanas
0.03474729 France_GrandEst_IA2
0.03819926 French_Nord
0.03871869 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04003493 BelgianC
0.04162020 French_Alsace
0.04182546 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04258054 French_Paris
0.04416610 France_GrandEst_IA2.SG
0.04630696 France_HautsDeFrance_IA2.SG
0.05349043 France_GrandEst_IA1.SG
0.05363339 French_Occitanie
0.05605514 Germany_West-Hallstattkreis_EIA(n=22)
0.05752259 French_Auvergne
0.06554737 French_Provence
0.07364192 French_Chalosse
0.07383730 French_South
0.07616375 French_Bigorre
0.07676522 French_Bearn
Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 3.4027% / 0.03402722
69.6 France_GrandEst_IA2
24.6 French_Seine-Maritime
5.8 French_Nord
French Alsace 11-18% Tunisian Carthage Punic?Quote:
Originally Posted by cass
There are a few French references missing there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvanas
https://i.imgur.com/afK9frt.png
Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 1.9097% / 0.01909670
43.2 French_South
30.8 French_Provence
26.0 French_Bearn
The Celts have the upper hand. Next come the descendants of the Romans. The Germans are in last place. Plus, there should be some remaining influence from more ancient local peoples.
A mix of all three?
That seems to be the case. Depending on the area, one or the other has more influence. What I don't understand is why it's being asked again; it's been clear for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tooting Carmen
In any case, if we have to look for someone present-day who is more similar to the continental Celts, we should look in France.
https://i.imgur.com/sh8SQ2m.png
G25/nMonte does not recover true ancestral composition. It only finds the best geometric fit of a target in PCA space using the source populations you give it. So if you model French people with ‘Celtic’, ‘Germanic’ and ‘Latin’ proxies, the result is just the best approximation within that reference set, not a biologically real breakdown of French DNA.
This model does not work because nMonte is fitting French targets to the available ancient sources as a geometric best fit in PCA space, not recovering their true biological ancestry. A low distance only means the coordinates were approximated well with that source set; it does not validate the historical meaning of the components or make the solution uniquely true.”Quote:
Originally Posted by cass
“It is said that in his wars in Gaul he slew a million men and enslaved another million.”
— Plutarch, Parallel Lives (Life of Caesar)
Since the invasion of Gaul by Julius Caesar, France has undergone continuous and significant population changes driven by warfare, migrations, and long-term demographic shifts.