Is West Asian a European component?

I was having a discussion on one thread regarding the West Asian component and according to Alfieb the West Asian/Caucasus component is considered as a European component due to its high frequency in Southern Europe.

The West Asian component originates from the Near East and just because Southern Europeans have notable amount of West Asian genes it shouldn't be considered as European. According to Alfieb Anatolia and the Caucasus are European.

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Originally Posted by alfieb

"West Asian" is Anatolian and Caucasian. Anatolia may have been the origin of all Indo-European peoples. Caucasia is still considered to be Europe.

Either way, it was politically and culturally part of Europe until you Turkmen showed up.

Which is all that matters, since the division between Eurasia is purely artificial.

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Originally Posted by alfieb

Georgia, Turkey, and Armenia are all in (at least part) Europe and compete in UEFA.

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If such were the case then Armenians, Turks, Assyrians, Kurds, Georgians and even Persians would be considered as Europeans.

So my question is, do you think the West Asian component is European?

From what I've been able to tell and given the findings of the aDNA Cardial Ware and LBK studies showing the Y-DNA of the males being 'G', it seems the Caucus compenent that Europeans (particularly southerners) have is derived from the wave of agro advance which appears to have begun in East Anatoila/Southern Caucuses/Mesopotamia.

Doug McDonald ascribes just about all of my Middle-Eastern to S. Caucuses.

So to answer your question its the disctincly Neolithic component to Europeans which is ultimately Near/Middle Eastern derived.

I said that it's Eurasian, not simply European, nor Asian.

Greeks are 30% West Asian. Armenians are 50% West Asian. Georgians are 75% West Asian. Georgia and Armenia are neither fully Asian nor fully European.

It's neither "European" nor "non-European" to me.

It doesn't matter to me so much where it originated but that it is an integral part of many peoples' genes, both within Europe and outside of it.

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Originally Posted by alfieb

I said that it's Eurasian, not simply European, nor Asian.

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Now this is just like changing the names because you may not like the way West Asian sounds. If it were a Eurasian component it would have been called Eurasian. We might as well make the Southwest Asian component Eurasian too since it is also present in Southern Europe.

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Greeks are 30% West Asian. Armenians are 50% West Asian. Georgians are 75% West Asian. Georgia and Armenia are neither fully Asian nor fully European.

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And the same goes with Greeks and Italians, genetically they are neither fully Asian or European. If the West Asian component were to be considered European, Europe would stretch all the way to Iran and the Levant.

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Originally Posted by orangepulp

And the same goes with Greeks and Italians, genetically they are neither fully Asian or European. If the West Asian component were to be considered European, Europe would stretch all the way to Iran and the Levant.

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As I said before, "European" is a social construct. We have decided collectively to draw the line for European or not, in such a way that anyone in Europe is "European" on a PCA plot (including the buffer groups like Sicilians and Greeks).. but if historically, those groups did not become part of Europe, we'd draw the line somewhere else and re-evaluate what "European" genetically means.

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Originally Posted by Hellenas

Mr. Pan-Asianist...You are a liar!!!
(or you don't know what you reading)

As Dienekes put it...

"No need to repeat that these prices ​​are aspects of relations between the Greeks and other populations [B]and not necessarily mean that the Greeks are a mixture of Basque, Sardinians, West Asiats, etc. Just demonstrate that there are eg greater common roots with the peoples of Asia Minor than with the Basques or with Sardinians and other Mediterranean peoples than with those of the Baltic."

http://greekgenetics.blogspot.gr/

It doesn't mean that we are SW & West Asiats and thus half "non-Europeans", it means that we just have a common origin. We the Greeks are partly Neolithic and we have came from the Near East at least 9,000-10,000 years ago, but right now we are completely Europeanized, we are not "Asiats" any more, we are Europeans. According to the way you see genetics soon you will come out with statements such as: "Half of Europe is not European".

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What am I lying about that West Asian component is not European!! That means Turks, Armenians, Kurds, etc.. are all European!

Besides, it says Greeks have common roots with people of Asia Minor which basically means you have Near Eastern genes.

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Also...

Here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...E&pli=1#gid=24

we read that Greeks are 22,9 of West_Asian origin but instead of that you posted an other percentage which increase West_Asian origin to 37,7, so we all understand what you doing here.



Where is the link? How many Greeks took place to this research?

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Globe 13 is the latest run by Dienekes, I posted the link and I am posting it again:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...E&pli=1#gid=24

19 Greeks participated.

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Originally Posted by Hellenas

So according to you all Europeans are non-Europeans as they came ALL OF THEM outside Europe.

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No, I didn't say this. I said that certain Southern Euros such as Greeks and Italians have significant amount of non-European originated components thus makes them not completely European in the genetic sense.

west asia is asia. Thats why the byzantine eagle had a double head

West Asian admixture is NON-European BUT MIDDLE EASTERN admixture :wink

What's weird for my results is I have more Southwest Asian than I should, but less West Asian.

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Originally Posted by Sikeliot

What's weird for my results is I have more Southwest Asian than I should, but less West Asian.

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Show us your results.

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Originally Posted by orangepulp

What am I lying about that West Asian component is not European!! That means Turks, Armenians, Kurds, etc.. are all European!

Besides, it says Greeks have common roots with people of Asia Minor which basically means you have Near Eastern genes.

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Again...

It doesn't mean that we are SW & West Asiats and thus half "non-Europeans", it means that we just have a common origin. We the Greeks are partly Neolithic and we have came from the Near East at least 9,000-10,000 years ago, but right now we are completely Europeanized(became whiter, got lighter eyes and hairs-dark brown, the hairs turned straighter, ther facial characteristics refined etc), we are not "Asiats" any more, we are Europeans. According to the way you see genetics soon you will come out with statements such as: "Half of Europe is not European".

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Globe 13 is the latest run by Dienekes, I posted the link and I am posting it again:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...E&pli=1#gid=24

19 Greeks participated.

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Your link don't work. 19 GREEKS??? And you think this represent the Greeks?

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No, I didn't say this. I said that certain Southern Euros such as Greeks and Italians have significant amount of non-European originated components thus makes them not completely European in the genetic sense.

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This gene goes back 10,000 years ago, it has completely Europeanized, go educate your self. All Europeans have non-European origin but they shall remain Europeans forever, including Greeks as well.

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Originally Posted by orangepulp

Show us your results.

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I can't find them but I posted them somewhere. I got like 11% of each West and Southwest Asian.

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Originally Posted by Hellenas

Again...

It doesn't mean that we are SW & West Asiats and thus half "non-Europeans", it means that we just have a common origin. We the Greeks are partly Neolithic and we have came from the Near East at least 9,000-10,000 years ago, but right now we are completely Europeanized(became whiter, we got lighter eyes and hairs-dark brown, our hairs turned straighter, our facial characteristics refined etc), we are not "Asiats" any more, we are Europeans. According to the way you see genetics soon you will come out with statements such as: "Half of Europe is not European".



Your link don't work. 19 GREEKS??? And you think this represent the Greeks?



This gene goes back 10,000 years ago, it has completely Europeanized, go educate your self. All Europeans have non-European origin but they shall remain Europeans forever, including Greeks as well.

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Here is the link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...E&pli=1#gid=24

Whys shouldn't those 19 Greeks represent Greece?? There is no way a countries whole population can be tested.


I never said you are not Europeans for the hundredth time. I just said Greeks carry non European DNA and it is significant (38%). Its almost 1/3 of your ancestry.I don't care when you got this West Asian admixture point is it is present in your genes.

And please stop exaggerating your skin tone, I have seen plenty of swarthy Greeks.

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Originally Posted by orangepulp

And the same goes with Greeks and Italians, genetically they are neither fully Asian or European. If the West Asian component were to be considered European, Europe would stretch all the way to Iran and the Levant.

What am I lying about that West Asian component is not European!! That means Turks, Armenians, Kurds, etc.. are all European!

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There are no European and non-European components :picard2: It is the combination and % of components that counts! ;)

It is the negligable % of the Northern European component in the populations you mentioned that makes them different. Not to mention their other admix that is not found in Southeast Europe. (high % Gedrosia, South-Asian, Sub-Saharan etc)

West Asian+Mediterranean+Northern European= European

West Asian+very low Med+very low NE+very high Gedrosia, Subsaharan or other admix=Not European

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Originally Posted by Raine

There are no European and non-European components :picard2: It is the combination and % of components that counts! ;)

It is the negligable % of the Northern European component in the populations you mentioned that makes them different. Not to mention their other admix that is not found in Southeast Europe. (high % Gedrosia, South-Asian, Sub-Saharan etc)

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Due to the frequency of the % of a component in a population a component is named. West Asian component is called West Asian because it peaks in West Asians.

Certain % of Gedrosia is present.

Either way to me it matters where we draw the line of "Europe" and not.. and we've drawn it, in the anthroforum community AND in real life when we think of Europe, at Sicily and Greece. Thus they are EUROPEAN, and Turks/Armenians/etc are not despite some shared genes.

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Originally Posted by Raine

West Asian+Mediterranean+Northern European= European

West Asian+very low Med+very low NE+very high Gedrosia, Subsaharan or other admix=Not European

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We're not talking about dominant components or mixture of certain components resulting to European or not. We are talking about a component and that is the West Asia component.It is frequent in West Asians making it a ME component.

To the people who voted "no",

Does this mean that Greeks, the intellectual founders of western civilization, are Non-Europeans?

On that run, West Asian is highest on Armenians, Georgians, Iranians, Pakistanis, and surrounding populations, so i wouldn't call it European. For that it would have to be highest somewhere in Europe

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Originally Posted by Alex Delarge

On that run, West Asian is highest on Armenians, Georgians, Iranians, Pakistanis, and surrounding populations, so i wouldn't call it European. For that it would have to be highest somewhere in Europe

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Wrong. West Asian peaks in Georgians i.e Northern Caucassians who incidentily look European.

Iranians, Pakistanis and Iranians have other components in high % that are not found in Europe. Pakistanis for example score 60% South Asian.

Georgians score some 60% West Asian, but they lack other components such as the Mediterannean and Northern European or they have them in negligable
percent.

Saudi Arabians have significant % of the Mediterranean component but that doesn't make them European because they have other admix which is not found in Europe.

I consider Georgians to be European.

Stalin sure wasn't Asian.

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Originally Posted by Raine

Wrong. West Asian peaks in Georgians i.e Northern Caucassians who incidentily look European.

Iranians, Pakistanis and Iranians have other components in high % that are not found in Europe. Pakistanis for example score 60% South Asian.

Georgians score some 60% West Asian, but they lack other components such as the Mediterannean and Northern European or they have them in negligable
percent.

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North Caucasians lack Med and Southwest Asian that are Southern components.They do score some Northern European and that's why they can be European in appearance. Anyway basing on looks alone is not a way to judge a persons race. I can show you many Euro looking Syrians and Persians, it doesn't make them European.

You must consider Southwest Asian and Gedrosia as European too since they are also present among Europeans.

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Originally Posted by Raine

Saudi Arabians have significant % of the Mediterranean component but that doesn't make them European because they have other admix which is not found in Europe.

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Actually Saudis South West Asian component is found in Europe.

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Originally Posted by Raine

Wrong. West Asian peaks in Georgians i.e Northern Caucassians who incidentily look European.

Iranians, Pakistanis and Iranians have other components in high % that are not found in Europe. Pakistanis for example score 60% South Asian.

Georgians score some 60% West Asian, but they lack other components such as the Mediterannean and Northern European or they have them in negligable
percent.

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Wrong? Georgians just happen to have the highest value, but only marginally. I'm not sure if i would consider that a peak. The Kalash or Brahui from Pakistan for example have 4% less.

As for georgians looking european i wouldn't know, never been there and i'm not familiar with georgians or azeris, armenians, etc. Also they score around 25-27% Mediterranean by the way, so i don't think it's negligable.

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Originally Posted by orangepulp

Whys shouldn't those 19 Greeks represent Greece?? There is no way a countries whole population can be tested.

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Do you read what you write? 19 Greeks represent the total population of Greece?

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I never said you are not Europeans for the hundredth time. I just said Greeks carry non European DNA and it is significant (38%). Its almost 1/3 of your ancestry.I don't care when you got this West Asian admixture point is it is present in your genes.

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It's the same thing non-European and "non-European DNA", as I told you it has completely Euroreanized. Also an amount of Greeks have a haplogroup which came from north African haplogroup E, does this makes them 'Africans'?

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And please stop exaggerating your skin tone, I have seen plenty of swarthy Greeks.

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Yes, me too, even my self, during summer(and not only) we are often suntanned.

Aris Poulianos(Anthropologist)

"The 90% of the persons we studied have WHITE SKIN COLOR. Rarely someone meets dark skin color and even more rarely very dark skin color. Very light skin color is met more often than dark skin color."

"The origin of the Greeks", page 69, year 2001.

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Originally Posted by Hellenas

Do you read what you write? 19 Greeks represent the total population of Greece?

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Well then how many people must be tested?! None of the reference samples are that much. Even Turks that are in the project are around 25.

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It's the same thing non-European and "non-European DNA", as I told you it has completely Euroreanized. Also an amount of Greeks have a haplogroup which came from north African haplogroup E, does this makes them 'Africans'?

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Some of your DNA components are not European, not all of your DNA.

I told you that haplogroups are small percentage of our ancestry, significant is autosmal DNA.

Also if a populations haplogroup is African in origin it means they come from that line of people long time ago but it doesn't mean they are African because haplogroups are not that significant.

It is a non European (Asian) caucasoid component.

According to the first graph, W/SW Asian admixture seems to predominate (at or over 50%) among some Greeks.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/426...regreekd12.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...MIXTURE_10.png

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Originally Posted by Alex Delarge

Wrong? Georgians just happen to have the highest value, but only marginally. I'm not sure if i would consider that a peak. The Kalash or Brahui from Pakistan for example have 4% less.

As for georgians looking european i wouldn't know, never been there and i'm not familiar with georgians or azeris, armenians, etc. Also they score around 25-27% Mediterranean by the way, so i don't think it's negligable.

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Georgians score 0 Med and negligible amount of Northern European:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...owsperpage=250

Pathans score 44% Gedrosia and only 1.1 Atlantic Med.

Comparing Georgians to Pakistanis is like comparing the French to North Africans who both share the Mediterranean component.

Saying West Asian component is non Euro therefore labelling any Greek, Italian or wichever European who has it as foreigner, is like saying a Turk who's born on the European side of Istanbul isn't a real Turkish...

Europe doesn't end on Gibraltar and Istanbul, these are mere geographical conventional terms, in reality you see clines and clines...
otherwise tell me why I should consider West Asian alien but haplogroup N European?while it's much more spread in Siberia than Europe?

How about call it South East Europe component instead of West Asian?:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Raine

Georgians score 0 Med and negligible amount of Northern European:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...owsperpage=250

Pathans score 44% Gedrosia and only 1.1 Atlantic Med.

Comparing Georgians to Pakistanis is like comparing the French to North Africans who both share the Mediterranean component.

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You missed the part of my first post where i said "On that run". And on that run Georgians have around 30% mediterranean. We are talking about different runs, so it makes the discussion useless. K12b doesn't even have components called "Mediterranean" or "West Asian".

Comparing Georgians with some Pakistani populations makes total sense in this context, since both have 55-60% West Asian, "on that run". And we are discussing where this component is high, aren't we?

[YOUTUBE]CGDIZoXXdg8[/YOUTUBE]

Do you have the spreadsheet of "that run" to check it out myself?

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Originally Posted by Raine

Do you have the spreadsheet of "that run" to check it out myself?

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It's a few pages back, posted by orangepulp.

Is the West Asian component South/Central Asian because the populations there have a high % of it too, more so than Europeans?

No.

The West Asian component peaks in West Asia and is therefore West Asian.

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Originally Posted by Hess

According to the first graph, W/SW Asian admixture seems to predominate (at or over 50%) among some Greeks.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/426...regreekd12.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...MIXTURE_10.png

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Holy shit. Greeks have over 50%?

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Originally Posted by Energia

How about call it South East Europe component instead of West Asian?:rolleyes:

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West Asia is not a part of South East Europe and the populations with the highest % of West Asian admix live in the Northern parts of West Asia, which is definitely not Southeast Europe. It would make no sence what so ever to call this component South East European. If anything, it would make more sence to call it the 'South/Central Asian' component as South/Central Asians have a higher % of it than certain South European countries.

Does that make sence to you?

Asian and European are only geographical terms. I only know that the West Asian component is the closest one to the Northern European one and peaks among rather depigmented people like Georgians and Abkhazians.