Italy school crucifixes 'barred'

[Radojica]

This is the shame for Europe and shocked me when i heard that on the news, but two things are falling to my mind:

1. Judgments of The European Court of Human Rights are not binding for the state about the rule is made, it's more like an advice what to do in some particular case and
2. If she had a few thousand euros (the lovely and carrying mother) to pay just to hear that she has the rights and that she is stronger than school system in Italy, i guess she is free to send her kid to some private school where religion is not present.

Of course, this is bringing some other questions to the table: where will it stop now when others see they can bring this question, or similar ones and what's the next step of "We are all citizens of the World" Brussel's agenda, especially knowing the number of Muslim immigrants in all EU countries...

It's bullshit, EU, UN and it's parts become a joke

[Poltergeist]

The woman who stirred the whole case seems to be an immigrant, from somewhere in Northern Europe.

It's funny thing how some people are so obsessed with islam that they bring that topic even there where it is totally unrelated to the whole specific case (as we have here), which can be seen from some comments in this thread.

This entire legal battle is about an old struggle between the principle of secularism/laicism, postulating that no religious denomination should interfere with the affairs of the state (and this is a public school, thus it is indirectly an affair of the state), and the contrary principle, that church and religion should play some role in the state (but that role was never absolute, since in Europe there was never any theocracy in the pure sense of the word).

Seen from the practical point of view, this is pure hair splitting. Italy is not going to become some "clerical republic" (as some hysterical anti-clericalists seem to fear) because of some crucifixes in some classrooms - because, from what I read, it is not mandated by the law that there should be crucifixes in all classrooms, but it is optional, meaning that some school may decide in one way, others in some different way in the matter.

On the contrary, this whole case could revive the specter of theoconnism or theoconservatism, an originally American and Protestan political ideology which has been gaining some ground in Europe as well in the last 7-8 years, in some Catholic circles too. Theoconnism is misuse of Christianity for political aims of some so-called Conservative (Christian Democratic, Liberal Conservative, right-of-the-center) political parties and agendas. They are no-less pro-globalist and no less fanatical supporters of the Western Alliance and its ruling elites, than the "left", but try to shroud and cloud everything into some pseudo-"Christian" rhetoric, usually criticize "secularism", "laicism" etc.

In cases like this theocons may take over the agenda of the "defense of the crucifix" and manipulate for their own ends the rightful anger people feel for some hair-splitting judicial beaurocrats and their absurd decisions.

[Bard]

I recently learned that in many schools in Italy, or at least in Sicily, there is a required amount of time set aside where students have to either study Catholicism or have a break time. Most kids do the religion study and it seems obvious that the schools want you to participate in it.

I also heard that there have been some calls for a study period for Islam as well.

You are right, I'm one of those who have the break time btw, young people don't believe in catholic stuff so much (expecially in the north) and personally I'm agnostic so I don't care much about religious things if I'm not sure about anything.
About the crucifixes I can just say that is the now common "islam loving" politic, I'm not angry about the crucifixes but about the fact that some muslims come to our land and we have to put away the crucifixes, try do to the same in any islamic country with their stuff and they will hang you, really.
Oh and by the way the kids don't give a fuck about the crucifix itself, we were used to burn it, and turn it upside down

[Anthropos]

About the crucifixes I can just say that is the now common "islam loving" politic, I'm not angry about the crucifixes but about the fact that some muslims come to our land and we have to put away the crucifixes, try do to the same in any islamic country with their stuff and they will hang you, really.
Oh and by the way the kids don't give a fuck about the crucifix itself, we were used to burn it, and turn it upside down

I see. And you are supposed to be much different from muslim and humanist fanatics then?

[Bari]

This is madness. Since when are the host the one that should change according to his guests? Its like walking into some house and start redacorating the way you want it. The problem today is that houseowners of Europe seem to accept any rampage on their home as long as they are not labelled as racists/extremists.

Whats so fucked up is how people act careless about how their traditions and culture are being alienated to satisfy the feelings/ego of 3rd world muslims. They have been welcomed into tolerant countries where they get respected for their faith, are safe, having been saved from war zones/troubled areas and instead of acting humble and thankful, they start complaining about how local traditions are different from their own. HELLO? You just fucking immigrated to another country. Why not choose your a country in your own region which is not in war, that share your same values if integrating into Christian Europe is so hard(despite all the social goods)?

If i had such despickable houseguests i would have kicked their asses out of my house and property before they had finished any demands.

[Amapola]

Let's be serious... in order to ensure the religious freedom, the expression or religious freedom needs banning? and by the way, by a lady's (Finnish inmigrant in Italy) request...!

For whatever may come... I am getting some cans of paint to fill Granada with crucifixes

In school, Obama, not being a believer at that moment, had to swear alleigance to the flag (a custom they have in schools) and he said "well, all of my life I have had to swear that alleigance ..." which includes the words "God and swear" and that never meant trouble of any kind.... If in situations like that, there is not trouble, surely, a crucifix in a school could never be considered to go against anybody's freedom.

I think there are two different dimensions of the issue but they intertwine:

1) One part is identity, i.e. Europe is what it is and we are what we are ... and in this respect, removing the religious references of public life would be just like trying to blot out ,at a stroke, 2,000 years of history which is, simply, crazy. What will be next? the processions in Easter? It's our patrimony.

2) On the other hand, there is the legal point, i.e. : to what extent, the freedom claim of a person may lead to prohibit the expression of freedom for the rest? there is not an objective question here - "Constitution or any of the rules imposed by the Strasbourg court"- that refers to the crucifixes or such a concrete thing .... So obviously in a judment of this characteristics there is a very important element of subjectivity from the judge although we don't know the foundation of it.

Then we have the matter of the minorities defeating majorities... so I think that in the end, in a system like ours, the social, political and reliigious context should have to be taken into consideration.

[Anthropos]

Secularists have no case in point of fact. Since to them, religious symbols are fictional, they could equally as well direct their aggressive tendencies towards the local cinema, bookshop, fine arts museum and opera theater, as well as any instance of fiction playing a part in their education. But the truth is that they are really hardcore fanatics, whose aim is simply to dominate, and they are selective in targetting one single kind among all the fictions that they are faced with.

[Bard]

I see. And you are supposed to be much different from muslim and humanist fanatics then?

I am.
I'm not a fanatic of anything, you can worship even a wooden table if you want imho but don't bother other ppl.

[Kadu]

I never thought that the neutrality of a state should mean prohibition?

It means no regime of exception. All religious manifestations must be displayed only outside of public institutions, therefore public buildings and the sort.
It's even debatable if temples, churches, mosques, etc... should face the front of a street as it stands clearly as a demonstration of power. At least it's what one of your Catholic brothers implemented here in the old times of Fascism, Salazar you know.

[Anthropos]

I am.
I'm not a fanatic of anything, you can worship even a wooden table if you want imho but don't bother other ppl.

Bother other people? If you bother yourself, it is not the fault of anybody else, but if you disrespect religious symbols by burning them and turning them upside down, I really think it's you bothering the religious and not the other way around.