View Poll Results: Are Ukraine and Belarus different enough from Russia to justify indepdence?

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  • Yes

    24 45.28%
  • No

    29 54.72%
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Thread: Should Ukraine and Belarus be part of the Russian Federation?

  1. #11
    Veteran Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Say that to a Ukrainian's face
    I did. They were happy to hear that from Russian

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Brothers don't commit acts of genocide on each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
    Oh really?! I don't think Brits are in position to lecture anyone on genocides Anyway Holodomor was widespread not only in Ukraine but also in large parts of Russia and was directed at general population regardless ethnicity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Overall, though, most Ukrainains are not pro-Russia.
    Says who?

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    According to the census data, around 78% of Ukrainian citizens are ethnic Ukrainians, and 17% Russians, again, mainly in the far east of the country. Galicia is 95% Ukrainian.

    Here are a couple of maps to ponder:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uk..._Ukrainian.svg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uk...01_Russian.svg

    Shche ne vmerla Ukraina!
    Here is a map to ponder:



    Yellow area in the middle is original Ukraine before 1654. Area above is gift from Russian Tzars between 1654 to 1917. Blue area is gift from Lenin in 1922. Red area is gift from Stalin in 1939-40 (that is actually what people refer to as Western Ukraine, yes, it's that small ). Green area is Crimea gifted to Ukraine by Khrushchev in 1954.

    So one have to ask himself: how can a country have a strong identity when 80% of it's territory (and population) was given to it by another country (ethnicity)?

  2. #12
    Johannes factotum
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    [QUOTE=Sarmatian;2199396]
    I did. They were happy to hear that from Russian
    Were they Ukrainians, or Russo-Ukrainians? Besides, there are always weirdos, but the majority support the West: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25328311

    Oh really?! I don't think Brits are in position to lecture anyone on genocides Anyway Holodomor was widespread not only in Ukraine but also in large parts of Russia and was directed at general population regardless ethnicity.
    Typically thirdworld mentality: you did something bad, so we can do something bad. But even still: no. Britain has never done anything nearly as bad as the Holodomor. Whilst you are correct that it wasn't unique to Ukraine, it was almost unique to Ukraine. And the Ukrainians blame it (fairly enough!) on Moscow.

    Says who?
    Ukrainians.

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ussia-21150536

    Although the Russians in the east love Russia, of course.

    Here is a map to ponder:



    Yellow area in the middle is original Ukraine before 1654. Area above is gift from Russian Tzars between 1654 to 1917. Blue area is gift from Lenin in 1922. Red area is gift from Stalin in 1939-40 (that is actually what people refer to as Western Ukraine, yes, it's that small ). Green area is Crimea gifted to Ukraine by Khrushchev in 1954.

    So one have to ask himself: how can a country have a strong identity when 80% of it's territory (and population) was given to it by another country (ethnicity)?
    Again, thirdworld thinking: if you 'prove' to someone their country was historically not a country, you think they'll stop being Ukrainian? Ukrainians like being Ukrainians: accept it. Besides, the Ukrainian Kievan Rus' was the East Slavic start-point, so all Russians are basically Ukrainians, not the other way round.

    Besides, the Ukrainian people have, of course, been oppressed by the Polish and Russians and Austrians for centuries: that doesn't make them less a people. 'Gifting' Ukraine ethnically Ukrainian areas doesn't put them in your debt: your slaughter of them, your oppression of their language, your general maltreatment are all enough for them to hate you - and from Kiev westwards, they hate you with a passion. Some even joined the Nazis against you in the Great Patriotic War. The actions of the USSR forced many - including my great-grandparents - to flee, too, creating an exodus of the intelligentsia. Russia is Ukraine's worst enemy.
    Who is rich? He who is happy with what he has - Simeon ben Zoma, Ethics of the Fathers, Talmud, Avot 4:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by WesternBoy View Post
    What about Ukraine and Belarus I have nothing to say, but Moldova (including the entire border of Transnistria, from north to south) should join România as quickly as possible. One people without borders






    As long as Romania gives Transylvania back to Hungary. Otherwise there'd be incoherent double standards.

  4. #14
    Veteran Member rashka's Avatar
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    I think that Moldavans are just Slavs that got Vlachized (the old term for Romanian).

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    I just realised I made a stupid mistake by wording the poll question so that it's the opposite of the title. I hope it doesn't confuse people.

    As in, if you say yes to "Should Ukraine and Belarus be part of the Russian Federation?" then you have to say no to "Are Ukraine and Belarus different enough from Russia to justify independence?"
    Last edited by DeaththeKid; 12-16-2013 at 04:15 AM.

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    Johannes factotum
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    It reads as:

    Yes: they should be independent.

    No: they should be part of Russia.
    Who is rich? He who is happy with what he has - Simeon ben Zoma, Ethics of the Fathers, Talmud, Avot 4:1

    Quote Originally Posted by zhaoyun View Post
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  7. #17
    Veteran Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Were they Ukrainians, or Russo-Ukrainians? Besides, there are always weirdos, but the majority support the West: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25328311
    BBC is probably the least credible source on the Ukrainian matters, at least for me. I have close relatives living in Kiev so I don't need newspapers to tell me what's going on there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Typically thirdworld mentality:
    Typical pathetic attempt of an arrogant Brit to downplay an opponent's opinion. Try harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    ...you did something bad, so we can do something bad.
    I have no shame for what my ancestors did. They did what they thought was a right thing to do and I'm not in position to judge them. One thing is certain: none of my family members participated in Holodomor. In fact some of my relatives were a victims of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    But even still: no. Britain has never done anything nearly as bad as the Holodomor.
    British concentration camps in South Africa beat a few Holodomors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Whilst you are correct that it wasn't unique to Ukraine, it was almost unique to Ukraine. And the Ukrainians blame it (fairly enough!) on Moscow.
    Starvation was widespread all over Southern Russia and it was intentionally induced on most agriculturally rich regions. But blaming Moscow for it today is retarded, it was different government with different ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Ukrainians.

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ussia-21150536

    Although the Russians in the east love Russia, of course.
    Ukrainians I know personally told me different story. And they are not from the East.


    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Again, thirdworld thinking: if you 'prove' to someone their country was historically not a country, you think they'll stop being Ukrainian? Ukrainians like being Ukrainians: accept it. Besides, the Ukrainian Kievan Rus' was the East Slavic start-point, so all Russians are basically Ukrainians, not the other way round.
    Do you realize the very term 'Ukrainian' is a mere 100 years old? For centuries they were knonw as Little Russians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Besides, the Ukrainian people have, of course, been oppressed by the Polish and Russians and Austrians for centuries: that doesn't make them less a people. 'Gifting' Ukraine ethnically Ukrainian areas doesn't put them in your debt: your slaughter of them, your oppression of their language, your general maltreatment are all enough for them to hate you - and from Kiev westwards, they hate you with a passion. Some even joined the Nazis against you in the Great Patriotic War. The actions of the USSR forced many - including my great-grandparents - to flee, too, creating an exodus of the intelligentsia. Russia is Ukraine's worst enemy.


    Ukraine oppressed? You must be insane. Modern day Ukraine and Southern Russia are the only territories in Europe where serfdom never existed. Sich had a hard life being located between major powers like Poland, Russia and Crimea but they manage quite well and even beat mighty Ottomans on a few occasions. Their unification with Russian Empire was voluntary and was a reasonable choice: while being very successful military entity, Sich had no developed governing structure to become fully functional competitive state. They had to join someone else to gain it. And they did quite well considering the fact that Cossacks were free men for as long as Russian Empire lasted. Which is the main reason why so many of them joined Nazis in WWII, they were loyal to Royal family and were hoping to restore Empire. They hated Commies, not Russians. That is the confusion many use nowadays to manipulate the facts. But guess what: USSR =/= Russia. Deal with it.

    Anyway all the fuss with Ukrainians hating Russians is highly exagerrated. Only the Western Ukraine (very small minority) hates Russians, the rest is just don't care for most part. You must be one of those runaway Ukrainian Jews who hate Russia with passion

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    There are too many countries today, I approve.

    Russia gets Belarus+East Ukraine+Crimea. West Ukraine goes to whoever wants to take care of that mess. Ideally Poland Lithuania

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    Ukraine and Belarus should remain independent, unless the majority of their people say otherwise.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I did. They were happy to hear that from Russian



    Oh really?! I don't think Brits are in position to lecture anyone on genocides Anyway Holodomor was widespread not only in Ukraine but also in large parts of Russia and was directed at general population regardless ethnicity.



    Says who?



    Here is a map to ponder:



    Yellow area in the middle is original Ukraine before 1654. Area above is gift from Russian Tzars between 1654 to 1917. Blue area is gift from Lenin in 1922. Red area is gift from Stalin in 1939-40 (that is actually what people refer to as Western Ukraine, yes, it's that small ). Green area is Crimea gifted to Ukraine by Khrushchev in 1954.

    So one have to ask himself: how can a country have a strong identity when 80% of it's territory (and population) was given to it by another country (ethnicity)?
    Ukraine was part of the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth for 400 years from the 1300s to 1700s, but were a distinct ethnic group. And then southwestern ukraine was part of austria until the 1900s.

    Ukraine did become part of the Russian empire for a while, but that was only a fraction of its history. So to say it was gifted most of its terrirory is just inaccurate.

    Also, western Ukraine includes Volhynia. Not sure why Russians always state otherwise.



    Last edited by Swearengen; 12-16-2013 at 04:50 AM.

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