Should Ukraine and Belarus be part of the Russian Federation?

[Zmey Gorynych]

Ukraine vs. Turkey:
political stability: instable/mostly stable
foreign influance: high (Russia)/no foreign influance
economy: shit/very progressive
military: weak/very strong
social conditions: shit/good
health conditions (HIV, etc.): catastrophic/very good
corruption: extreme high/tolerable low

Turkey is the important partner, Ukraine is not partner, the conditions of Ukraine is horrible. Ukraine is the subject of the European adventurist policy.

Now its been a while since economic and political stability stopped being the main EU selection criteria. Nowadays it's all about sticking it to the other guy.

[Sarmatian]

term ukrainian as an ethnonym appeared in 18th or 19th century.
what ukrainians were called like by foreigners isnt much of relevance; their own earlier ethnonym was rusyns (ruthenians).

I think you're confusing terms here. Rusyns and Ruthenians are not the same thing. Rusyns are specific ethnicity that lives in Carpathia while Ruthenia was a Latin term to designate all people of Rus origin. So basically Ruthenians is foreign term itself that doesn't have a Slavic equivalent other than Rus. And before Duchy of Muscovy was transformed into Russian Empire all those Rus people identified themselves by principalities like Kievans, Halichians, Pskovians etc but still considered themselves as one single ethnic entity and had spoken the same language.

[blogen]

Now its been a while since economic and political stability stopped being the main EU selection criteria. Nowadays it's all about sticking it to the other guy.

In the reality not. In the present crisis the most important viewpoint is the economic one and the second is the political stability. And the accession of a poor country excluded because of the inner problem of the labour migration. And Ukraine is extreme poor.

[Zmey Gorynych]

In the reality not. In the present crisis the most important viewpoint is the economic one and the second is the political stability. And the accession of a poor country excluded because of the inner problem of the labour migration. And Ukraine is extreme poor.

If that were true countries like Romania and Bulgaria and some of the 2004 additions shouldn't have joined.

[Windischer]

I think you're confusing terms here. Rusyns and Ruthenians are not the same thing. Rusyns are specific ethnicity that lives in Carpathia while Ruthenia was a Latin term to designate all people of Rus origin. So basically Ruthenians is foreign term itself that doesn't have a Slavic equivalent other than Rus. And before Duchy of Muscovy was transformed into Russian Empire all those Rus people identified themselves by principalities like Kievans, Halichians, Pskovians etc but still considered themselves as one single ethnic entity and had spoken the same language.

ruthenian is just latin term for rusyn. rusyn was once ethnonym of people who are now known as ukrainians, rusyns and belarusians. almost all have abandoned it at some point, except for one westernmost group which retained it. those are modern-day rusyns.

[blogen]

If that were true countries like Romania and Bulgaria and some of the 2004 additions shouldn't have joined.

Yes. The Balkan member states would not be able to join now.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE=Sarmatian;2199840]

BBC is probably the least credible source on the Ukrainian matters, at least for me. I have close relatives living in Kiev so I don't need newspapers to tell me what's going on there.

Are you actually denying the pro-EU riots happening in Ukraine right now? Imbecile.

I have no shame for what my ancestors did. They did what they thought was a right thing to do and I'm not in position to judge them. One thing is certain: none of my family members participated in Holodomor. In fact some of my relatives were a victims of it.

I would be surprised if any of your ancestors actively participated in the Holodomor.

British concentration camps in South Africa beat a few Holodomors.

Holodomor: 2-12 million people deliberately starved to death. 'Concentration camps:' Boers literally put in some camps. Some died of disease, but only a few thousand. You're confusing them with death camps.

Starvation was widespread all over Southern Russia and it was intentionally induced on most agriculturally rich regions. But blaming Moscow for it today is retarded, it was different government with different ideology.

Moscow at the time, I meant - and the ideology of Russia with regards to Ukraine has hardly changed. Russia hasn't apologised for or even acknowledged the Holodomor: why should the Ukrainians forgive you?

Ukrainians I know personally told me different story. And they are not from the East.

[Part of] my family is from the West. They have a different story. Plus, the widespread rioting:

Here's 3 non-BBC sources for you.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-8996998.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...t-in-Kiev.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/11/wo...aine-protests/

Do you realize the very term 'Ukrainian' is a mere 100 years old? For centuries they were knonw as Little Russians.

Yes, I do. It doesn't make a difference.

Ukraine oppressed? You must be insane. Modern day Ukraine and Southern Russia are the only territories in Europe where serfdom never existed. Sich had a hard life being located between major powers like Poland, Russia and Crimea but they manage quite well and even beat mighty Ottomans on a few occasions. Their unification with Russian Empire was voluntary and was a reasonable choice: while being very successful military entity, Sich had no developed governing structure to become fully functional competitive state. They had to join someone else to gain it. And they did quite well considering the fact that Cossacks were free men for as long as Russian Empire lasted. Which is the main reason why so many of them joined Nazis in WWII, they were loyal to Royal family and were hoping to restore Empire. They hated Commies, not Russians. That is the confusion many use nowadays to manipulate the facts. But guess what: USSR =/= Russia. Deal with it.

Yes, Russian Empire =/= Russia, too.

Serfdom existed: it got abolished pretty late in the game too:

http://ukrmap.su/en-uh9/369.html

The Ukrainians hated the Soviets and the Russians.

Anyway all the fuss with Ukrainians hating Russians is highly exagerrated. Only the Western Ukraine (very small minority) hates Russians, the rest is just don't care for most part. You must be one of those runaway Ukrainian Jews who hate Russia with passion

Hatred is perhaps a strong word; 'retain the desire to be independent from Russia and become closer to the West' is way more accurate. I don't hate Russia - although your government is dreadful, your record on human rights is worse and you don't seem to realise the cold war is over. But Russians themselves? You're fine people

Please provide sources for your rambles.

[Windischer]

im certain that mr. ultra wants to tell us something. his objections will be undoubtedly factual and perhaps he will reveal some obscure link to crusades, his favourite topic

[Longbowman]

Split of Ukraine is very possible reality in some near future. Western part of it is way too anti-Russian while Eastern and Southern parts are too pro-Russian. While the country is hanging in between both sides are more or less content with the situation. But as soon as there will be too much movement one way or another there will be increased tensions which will lead to collapse of the country. There is no unity between Ukrainians and it's impossible today.

So you admit those in the East are not pro-Russian as I've said, I support the Far East joining Russia. It would make things easier for the West and Central raions.

[Sarmatian]

ruthenian is just latin term for rusyn. rusyn was once ethnonym of people who are now known as ukrainians, rusyns and belarusians. almost all have abandoned it at some point, except for one westernmost group which retained it. those are modern-day rusyns.

You're making things up. People who are now known as Ukrainians called themselves 'Рус', 'Русы'. Just as Russians and Belorussians. The Rus identity was spread all the way North up to Novgorod, East up to Murom etc. Later all these Rus people were separated and developed different identities. I suppose the westernmost came under influence of Western Slavs and other neighbors and gradually transformed their name to Rusyns. But I've never ever heard about people from Kiev, Minsk or Smolensk calling themselves Rusyns.