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Thread: Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans(Lazaridis 2013)

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artek View Post
    I had a quarell with an Albanian once on this subject, he was citing Ken Nordtvedt every damn time but new discoveries confirmed my previous statements . I must admit that later for some time I started to think that I2 was neolithic, because of many doubts concerning it. Anymore!.
    How does the new discoveries confirm your statement in anyway?

    Neither sample was I2a-Din. Loschbour was confirmed I2a1b* L621- L161-. The L621- means not I2a-Din, because I2a-Din is L621+. Nordtvedt places I2a1b as a whole at about 16k years old, so no contradiction. Similarly, Motala12 was I2a1b L621-, and hence not I2a-Din. It could have been I2a-Isles L161+ in theory, but could also have been I2a1b* like Loschbour. Again, no contradiction.

  2. #52
    aR1an & hUnt4r-gatherer Artek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by safinator View Post
    How does the new discoveries confirm your statement in anyway?
    He said that (literally)I2a1b is about 2,5 kya or something. Certain Din-clade is another thing, although it needs more SNP's for proper timing.
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>YP5224>BY27800
    N1c-L1026>CTS10760>VL29>Z4908>L550>L1025>M2783>Y5580>L591>BY158>Y5576
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP1019>YP1020>YP1033*
    R1b-U152>L2>DF103>S14469
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artek View Post
    He said that (literally)I2a1b is about 2,5 kya or something. Certain Din-clade is another thing, although it needs more SNP's for proper timing.
    You're wrong, he said I2a1b found in Balkans is around this age not I2a1b in general as you can see in his tree here

    http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/T...r%20Hg%20I.pdf

    Nordtvedt dates the TMRCA of all known branches at ~12k and its overall clade age at ~16k, basically there's nothing against the theory for now.

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    aR1an & hUnt4r-gatherer Artek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by safinator View Post
    You're wrong, he said I2a1b found in Balkans is around this age not I2a1b in general as you can see in his tree here

    http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/T...r%20Hg%20I.pdf

    Nordtvedt dates the TMRCA of all known branches at ~12k and its overall clade age at ~16k, basically there's nothing against the theory for now.
    You've misunderstood me, because I wasn't precise enough. This user was wrong when interpreting Nordtvedt, not Nordtvedt about the clade age .

    I know that those tested branches are ancestral to the Dinaric clade(and Disles as well) and I wrote as my second post to this thread.

    Anyway, I wonder what will come up as a work of "The Rise Project". Maybe there is a time for some early I1 branches, along with R1a and other haplos.
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>YP5224>BY27800
    N1c-L1026>CTS10760>VL29>Z4908>L550>L1025>M2783>Y5580>L591>BY158>Y5576
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP1019>YP1020>YP1033*
    R1b-U152>L2>DF103>S14469
    It's still not an end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artek View Post
    I've never thought that this is a credible enough indicator of Slavic presence, because in Poland I2 is in about 5% of men, whereas I1 is in 8-9% of men. Slavic marker, huh? Maybe only in the southern theatre.

    I had a quarell with an Albanian once on this subject, he was citing Ken Nordtvedt every damn time but new discoveries confirmed my previous statements . I must admit that later for some time I started to think that I2 was neolithic, because of many doubts concerning it. Anymore!.

    Yah the theory goes that I2 was the Carpathian Slavic haplogroup and encompassed the north-east foothills of the Carpaths from Slovakia to Moldavia. However considering that Albanians seem to be relatively abundant in I2 given their small contribution from Slavs genetically, it doesn't really add up. Probably the I2 in the Balkans is indeed a founder effect from those Mesolithic lads, and it isn't a coincidence the most mountainous parts are also the highest concentration of I2. Mountainous terrain is an excellent preserver of haplogroups, we still got Oetzi-like haplogroups in the Alps and archaic haplogroups in the Caucasus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gospodine View Post
    In any case, I don't see why it's surprising to people the abundance of I2 in the Western Balkans when most scholars are in agreement that Hg I diffused from South-to-North after the LGM from the mountainous Ice Age refuges in the Balkans.
    The I2 in the west Balkans isn't particularly surprising as that could easily be written off as founder effect. The issue I have is for example, this Albanian I share with on 23andme carries I2a2b and plots leaning towards southern Europeans:



    Therefore I suspect founder effect is at play here otherwise you I2 folk would plot much more north. I've seen your results and compared to this Albanian you indeed do plot more towards the north, just a notch N-W of me, but strip away your Mesolithic-like ancestry in the form of mostly Slavic and small traces of Avar, Goth and Hallstatt ancestry, what you are left with is essentially this Albanian guy who could be used as an example of a basal, pre-Slavic Balkanite.... Actually, even more southern than him because Albanians especially Gheg highlanders even have a bit of Slavic themselves. Basically what I'm trying to say here is your Slavic ancestry makes it hard to tell how much I2-Mesolithic ancestry you actually have, if any at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gospodine View Post
    We could be looking at something that more closely resembles Mario Alinei's Upper-Paleolithic Continuity Theory which postulates the Slavic languages originating in the Western Balkans and diffusing North and Eastward.
    A bit off topic, but if anything east-Balkans would be more better candidate than west-Balkans, specifically the Danube Delta area. The general consensus is that the Slavic homeland was situated here, roughly at a time when there was more forest coverage which agriculture later destroyed:



    Imagine such a hypothetical scenario of pre-proto-Slavs or whoever emerging from the west-Balkans.. Great, now meet some natural barriers like the Dinaric Alps, followed by the Carpathians and it makes it all seem unlikely. A much less complicated scenario would be Slavic languages arriving from what is now N-E Bulgaria when the ice melted.

    Anyway, more questions, how did haplogroup I end up in Kurdistan? Only migration in that direction from Balkans was Cimmerians or Phrygians.


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    Northeast Caucasians has more ANE ancestry than Europeans
    An interesting implication of this analysis is that ANE-related ancestry may be particularly high in the
    Northeast Caucasus, as both fitted and lower bound values for Lezgins and Chechens exceed inferred
    ANE values for Europeans (compare Table S12.8 and Table S12.12).
    In light of our other results, it is not surprising that these populations would have high ANE-related ancestry. They are at the northern end
    of the Near Eastern cline (Fig. 1B) and have the highest values of common drift with MA1 among
    Near Eastern populations (Extended Data Fig. 4), as measured by f4(Test, Stuttgart; MA1, Chimp).


    This is the model for Near Eastern populations
    NE2+UHG=Early farmers
    NE1+ANE=Caucasians
    Last edited by MfA_; 12-27-2013 at 07:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Capelli View Post
    We are cloeser to them than most other Europeans.

    Well at least we don't cluster with asiatic hunters.
    Not asiatic. Undifferentiated eurasiatic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Accountant View Post
    Interesting stuff!



    Are Finns, Mordvins and Russians too stronk for this research?
    They live in another dimension.
    They are faster than light
    Star Wreck!

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