Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans(Lazaridis 2013)

[MfA_]

Supplementry info 9.

We wish to avoid over-interpretation of the admixture proportions, but nonetheless highlight some
patterns each of which is validated by f-statistic analyses reported in this study and previous studies:

1. The absence of a Near Eastern relatedness in all European hunter-gatherer groups but its
presence in Stuttgart.

2. The clear affinity of MA1 to Native American populations but not to East Asian or presentday
Siberian populations.

3. The occurrence of low levels of additional gene flows in west Eurasia from Africa (in parts of
the Near East or southern Europe) or recent Siberia (in parts of Northeastern Europe or the
Near East and Caucasus).

4. Evidence tying MA1 to Europe, the northern Near East and Caucasus, and south/central Asia.

[Argang]

The clear affinity of MA1 to Native American populations but not to East Asian or presentday
Siberian populations.

That part may be a bit inaccurate, for this study did not compare Mal'ta to Ket unlike the sample's introductionary study. Ket are West Siberians and apparently the closest non-eskimo/amerindian-type population to MA1.

[Harkonnen]

It is sort of strange how randomly that graph seems to pickup the similarity. For example Selkups should be genetically rather identical to Kets. They are sometimes seen almost as Uralified Ket People. They were neighbours and allies for centuries and intermarriage was common. Both are predominantly Q-M242 (Selkups 70%, Kets 95%). Autosomally both are Siberian, Selkups slightly more north Euro like. So it's rather difficult to phantom, what is it exactly that makes Ket's so much more Mal'ta like.

[d3cimat3d]

What I would like to know is how Herzegovina survived the Slavic migrations and avoided having their I2 replaced, or could it be I2 did come with Slavs from Mesolithic remnants in the Carpathian refugium (Since Croats and Bosniaks came from Slovakia and thereabouts)? Also I'd like to know to what extent are Herzegovinans actually descended from Mesolithic people autosomally. I mean their I2 could be just founder effect like that of maritime R1b from the Levant to western Europe with minimal autosomal input.

[Artek]

What I would like to know is how Herzegovina survived the Slavic migrations and avoided having their I2 replaced, or could it be I2 did come with Slavs from Mesolithic remnants in the Carpathian refugium (Since Croats and Bosniaks came from Slovakia and thereabouts)? Also I'd like to know to what extent are Herzegovinans actually descended from Mesolithic people autosomally. I mean their I2 could be just founder effect like that of maritime R1b from the Levant to western Europe with minimal autosomal input.

I think that sequencing of I2a1b should show more SNP's(regarding it's age, many SNP's were just not discovered) and help us to better understand the relation - whether most of I2 in the Balkans was introduced by Slavs and it had a founder effect just there or that some I2 were just added by Slavs to the existing pool. aDNA Y-DNA would be a huge help and a final confirmation too.

I've never thought that this is a credible enough indicator of Slavic presence, because in Poland I2 is in about 5% of men, whereas I1 is in 8-9% of men. Slavic marker, huh? Maybe only in the southern theatre.

I had a quarell with an Albanian once on this subject, he was citing Ken Nordtvedt every damn time but new discoveries confirmed my previous statements . I must admit that later for some time I started to think that I2 was neolithic, because of many doubts concerning it. Anymore!.

[Hevo]

I've never thought that this is a credible enough indicator of Slavic presence, because in Poland I2 is in about 5% of men, whereas I1 is in 8-9% of men. Slavic marker, huh? Maybe only in the southern theatre.

Dont forget that I2a1b is one of the main haplogroups in Belarus, Ukraine and South Russia.

[Argang]

It is sort of strange how randomly that graph seems to pickup the similarity. For example Selkups should be genetically rather identical to Kets. They are sometimes seen almost as Uralified Ket People. They were neighbours and allies for centuries and intermarriage was common. Both are predominantly Q-M242 (Selkups 70%, Kets 95%). Autosomally both are Siberian, Selkups slightly more north Euro like. So it's rather difficult to phantom, what is it exactly that makes Ket's so much more Mal'ta like.

The difference between the two when it comes to being Mal'ta-like isn't in fact that big. Selkups are significantly more Mal'ta-like than, say, Nganassans and Yakuts.

[Gospodine]

What I would like to know is how Herzegovina survived the Slavic migrations and avoided having their I2 replaced, or could it be I2 did come with Slavs from Mesolithic remnants in the Carpathian refugium (Since Croats and Bosniaks came from Slovakia and thereabouts)? Also I'd like to know to what extent are Herzegovinans actually descended from Mesolithic people autosomally. I mean their I2 could be just founder effect like that of maritime R1b from the Levant to western Europe with minimal autosomal input.

The over reliance on the traditional point of view of ancient human migrations is kind of stifling.

We could be looking at something that more closely resembles Mario Alinei's Upper-Paleolithic Continuity Theory which postulates the Slavic languages originating in the Western Balkans and diffusing North and Eastward.

In any case, I don't see why it's surprising to people the abundance of I2 in the Western Balkans when most scholars are in agreement that Hg I diffused from South-to-North after the LGM from the mountainous Ice Age refuges in the Balkans.

[Artek]

Dont forget that I2a1b is one of the main haplogroups in Belarus, Ukraine and South Russia.

I know, even in Polish project many of I2's have Ukrainian and Belarussian/easterly surnames .

Only credible slavic marker is an R1a-M458 and some certain subclades under R1a-Z280(the rest of Z280's are Baltic/Prussian, some rare lineages are just a "Corded survivors" like Z280+CTS1211-).

For me, it's only the proof that Slavs haven't settled a Poland from the Ukraine but a Przeworsk culture, by many considered as a Germanic(the debate about it's character lasts for a century), was possibly proto-Slavic and ancestral(at least to some extent) to West Slavic tribes. I hope I'm not wrong and aDNA will prove it as well. Physical anthropology already proved it.

[Insuperable]

What I would like to know is how Herzegovina survived the Slavic migrations and avoided having their I2 replaced, or could it be I2 did come with Slavs from Mesolithic remnants in the Carpathian refugium (Since Croats and Bosniaks came from Slovakia and thereabouts)? Also I'd like to know to what extent are Herzegovinans actually descended from Mesolithic people autosomally. I mean their I2 could be just founder effect like that of maritime R1b from the Levant to western Europe with minimal autosomal input.

They are autosomally Mesolithic proportional to their geographical position by now or in other words I2 could be a founder effect. However, don't forget that people have mtdnas also and I bet their mtdnas would be what we think of typically modern Balkan types if Dinaric I2 is Slavic in origin (can't know for sure). For now it is thought that Dinaric I2 type (Dinaric I2a1b type that is. I think it is called Dinaric I south) is 2500 old and came to Balkans with Slavic invasion.

Can't remember anymore without checking, but I have two or three Herzegovinian Croats on my 23andme list who are more similar to Croats from Croatia (I asked where they are from exactly and they come from the same area) and two or tree who are similar to Bulgarians, Montenegrins, Romanians (who come from the same area, but different area). Ottomans settled in Bosnia many people from around Balkans to inhabit certain desolated areas so I attribute this difference to that or maybe this Herzegovinians who are closer to Croats are less Balkan native, who can know definitely for now anyway.

I think that sequencing of I2a1b should show more SNP's(regarding it's age, many SNP's were just not discovered) and help us to better understand the relation - whether most of I2 in the Balkans was introduced by Slavs and it had a founder effect just there or that some I2 were just added by Slavs to the existing pool. aDNA Y-DNA would be a huge help and a final confirmation too.

I've never thought that this is a credible enough indicator of Slavic presence, because in Poland I2 is in about 5% of men, whereas I1 is in 8-9% of men. Slavic marker, huh? Maybe only in the southern theatre.

I had a quarell with an Albanian once on this subject, he was citing Ken Nordtvedt every damn time but new discoveries confirmed my previous statements . I must admit that later for some time I started to think that I2 was neolithic, because of many doubts concerning it. Anymore!.

Hopefully it will turn out to be native Balkan marker, but we still don't know is I2 clade found in Mesolithic remains of Dinaric I type found in western Balkans. What is new to all of this anyway, people thought for long time by now that I and its branches are Mesolithic in origin. Herzegovinians carry a lot of Mesolithic Y-DNA and yet are not much Mesolithic so I don't see why are you surprised if Poland has low levels of I2 and especially if some East Slavs have more. It could be the founder effect, but it could be explained on other basis or it could be that I2 does not have much connection with "Slavs".