[SPLIT] The Roots of Hungarian

[esaima]

Mod Note: thread split from here

The Baltic languages are not very difficult at first look, especially lithuanian which has many familiar latin words. I believe contrary to the "finno-ugric" theories, that finnish is a hard language even if it doesn't look that bad in written form, it has absolutely no connection to hungarian, not in grammar, not in pronunciation, not in words with common origin. Basically with this I arrive to my sweet hungarian language, it has no relative language, and connecting it with any type of family tree it's useless and unproductive.

I think that it is not so easy to make the scientific world to believe that Khanty and Mansi are not your linguistical relatives.They tend to write it everywhere.

[Horka Ozul]

I think that it is not so easy to make the scientific world to believe that Khanty and Mansi are not your linguistical relatives.They tend to write it everywhere.

Yeah, since the linguistic scientists are the most conservative to old dogmas, classifications, I heard rarely that due to new evidences they rewritten the linguistic origins. Especially with the magyar language it's even harder, since our own academicians preach the finn-ugric theory and the magyar language supposedly belongs to it without daring to respond to this theory's revisionists. The Khanty and Mansi are nearly extinct siberian tribes. How in the hell could they possibly have the most related language to us, because I looked up to the so called evidences, and they are extremely weak to say at best (This last sentence isn't intended to you)

[Cail]

Yeah, since the linguistic scientists are the most conservative to old dogmas, classifications, I heard rarely that due to new evidences they rewritten the linguistic origins. Especially with the magyar language it's even harder, since our own academicians preach the finn-ugric theory and the magyar language supposedly belongs to it without daring to respond to this theory's revisionists.

And what is your opinion? Where do you think Hungarian language belongs?

The Khanty and Mansi are nearly extinct siberian tribes. How in the hell could they possibly have the most related language to us

Lol, how does being "nearly extinct siberian tribes" affect their ability to be Hungarian's closest relatives? Hungarians migrated to Europe, Khanty/Mansi stayed and are now facing extinction. The relation is quite loose, ofcourse, it's not like inter-Slavic, or inter-Romance degree of closeness. But they are closest living relatives indeed.

because I looked up to the so called evidences, and they are extremely weak to say at best (This last sentence isn't intended to you)

"Evidence" as you call it is quite obvious to any linguist. Mass lexical comparison clearly shows that, correlation is about the same as in Celtic group (Gaelic vs Welsh/Brethon subgroups). And not just some cognates, but stable regular correspondence.

Hungarin being Ugric is not even discussed, it's simply scientific fact.

[Majar]

Hungarin being Ugric is not even discussed, it's simply scientific fact.

Hungarians are linguistic attention whores. They want to be special and unique, this is where the Scythian-origin stuff comes in. Alternative theories are as simple as "The Soviets said the Magyars are Finno-Ugric, so it must be wrong."

[Poltergeist]

Hungarians are linguistic attention whores. They want to be special and unique, this is where the Scythian-origin stuff comes in. Alternative theories are as simple as "The Soviets said the Magyars are Finno-Ugric, so it must be wrong."

The fact remains that Hungarian has no apparent closer similarity with ANY other language. That's a pure and simple fact, which makes relating of Hungarian to Hanti-Mansi, or to Finnic languages for that matter, very debatable and open to quite legitimate criticism.

[Horka Ozul]

And what is your opinion? Where do you think Hungarian language belongs?


Lol, how does being "nearly extinct siberian tribes" affect their ability to be Hungarian's closest relatives? Hungarians migrated to Europe, Khanty/Mansi stayed and are now facing extinction. The relation is quite loose, ofcourse, it's not like inter-Slavic, or inter-Romance degree of closeness. But they are closest living relatives indeed.



"Evidence" as you call it is quite obvious to any linguist. Mass lexical comparison clearly shows that, correlation is about the same as in Celtic group (Gaelic vs Welsh/Brethon subgroups). And not just some cognates, but stable regular correspondence.

Hungarin being Ugric is not even discussed, it's simply scientific fact.

"Closest living relatives" . Do you even know what are you talking about? There are no eskimo looking magyars, so what's your purpose saying this stupid thing . And don't even start explaining that the original magyars died out, and had a 360 degree genetic and anthropological change only in 1000 years, that's why they don't look as siberian eskimos anymore.

[Horka Ozul]

Hungarians are linguistic attention whores. They want to be special and unique, this is where the Scythian-origin stuff comes in. Alternative theories are as simple as "The Soviets said the Magyars are Finno-Ugric, so it must be wrong."

Actually austrian linguists spread this theory first, trying to ridicule a nation which was having it's national revival in the Romanticism era, this doctrine just consolidated under communism, and today slowly is being questioned by more and more hungarian linguists and historians (not enough sadly).

[Osweo]

Actually austrian linguists spread this theory first, trying to ridicule a nation which was having it's national revival in the Romanticism era, this doctrine just consolidated under communism, and today slowly is being questioned by more and more hungarian linguists and historians (not enough sadly).

WHAT is ridiculous about descending (partially) from a warrior people that rode all the way from the Urals, smashed everyone in their way, and set up a new nation, miles from their homeland?

Mansi, Bashkirs, Chuvash etc. are not scum, apes or suphumans. And they are your distant relatives. VERY distant, but still not unconnected.

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Hungarian egy kettö három négy öt hat hét nyolc kilenc tíz
Khanty..... it ...katn khutem n'ate vet khut tapet nivet yaryang yang
Mansi...... akva katIg khurum nila at khot sat n'ololov ontolov lov

The correspondences are clear as day.

[Cail]

"Closest living relatives" . Do you even know what are you talking about? There are no eskimo looking magyars, so what's your purpose saying this stupid thing . And don't even start explaining that the original magyars died out, and had a 360 degree genetic and anthropological change only in 1000 years, that's why they don't look as siberian eskimos anymore.

Can you understand that there is no connection between linguistic relation, and genetical relation whatsoever? American Negroes are linguistic relatives of Swedes and Scots, austroloid Indians are linguistic relatives of white Iranians and so on. On the other hand, Basques are very close to other Iberians genetically, while completely different linguistically. So is your case. Khanty-Mansi are closest linguistical relatives of Hungarians, while genetically Hungarians are of course much closer to their European neighbors.

[Horka Ozul]

WHAT is ridiculous about descending (partially) from a warrior people that rode all the way from the Urals, smashed everyone in their way, and set up a new nation, miles from their homeland?

Mansi, Bashkirs, Chuvash etc. are not scum, apes or suphumans. And they are your distant relatives. VERY distant, but still not unconnected.

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Hungarian egy kettö három négy öt hat hét nyolc kilenc tíz
Khanty..... it ...katn khutem n'ate vet khut tapet nivet yaryang yang
Mansi...... akva katIg khurum nila at khot sat n'ololov ontolov lov

The correspondences are clear as day.

Is that so. Than why those almighty fighting Ural warriors still live a peaceful, sedentary life, mostly fishing and hunting. Their temper, culture is totally opposed to the magyars of the 9th, 10th centuries, who were masters of horses, masters of the arrow. In behavior there is no evidence that the magyars could possibly be related to these quiet eskimo fishing men. Even if it is so that we descend from them, than in magyar gene-pool there should be abundant Uralic, asian genes, also physically we should resemble to Uralic people, at least near 3-4% if not more, yet it's totally on the other way around. It's undeniable that the counting resembles somehow to theirs, but it is more possible that these small tribes got in contact with a large proto-magyar population from whom they got influenced linguistically, it is out of the question that such small tribes could influence a large population, as the magyars were already in the second half of the first millennium.