View Poll Results: Which option would you support?

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  • the creation of a modern Baltic Prussian State

    6 26.09%
  • Support Germany’s or Lithuania’s claims

    13 56.52%
  • Support modern Kaliningraders in their demands of greater autonomy

    4 17.39%
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Thread: KÖNIGSBERG (AKA KALININGRAD) UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW: RUSSIAN, GERMAN, LITHUANIAN, OR SIMPLY...

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    Default KÖNIGSBERG (AKA KALININGRAD) UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW: RUSSIAN, GERMAN, LITHUANIAN, OR SIMPLY...

    What would happen to Kaliningrad if the status quo were to be no longer a viable option?

    Although the Kaliningrad Region is currently administered by Russia, it is not a legal part of Russia.



    On February 11, 1945, at the Crimea (Yalta) Conference, the Big Three agreed on the Curzon Line as the boundary between Poland and the USSR. However, the archival material clearly shows that there had not been any legally binding agreement made between the allies about the transfer of the Königsberg Region to the Soviet Union at any of the Second World War conferences. This is why Stalin attempted to secure his gains at the Potsdam conference in Berlin, which took place from July 17 to August 2, 1945.
    there are 3 possible solutions in the case Kaliningrad were to leave the Russian federation.






    • The German Claim: Some Germans challenge the validity of both the Final Settlement and the original “dismemberment” of the German Reich.

    Their arguments are complex but can be reduced in essence to two claims:
    1. the Allies had no power to allow German territory to be annexed by other countries
    2. the West Germany and even the modern Federal Republic of Germany are not coextensive with the German Reich and are therefore not competent to speak for it in its entirety

    The first proposition is supported by numerous charges: that the guarantees of self-determination in the Atlantic Charter, the UN Charter, and the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties were ignored; that the Ancient Roman principle of ex injuria non oritur jus prohibits punishing Germany by unilateral confiscation of its territory; that the powers of the Allies as occupiers were strictly curtailed by the Hague Laws of War of 1907; that use of German lands as “compensation” to Poland for lands lost to the Soviet Union has no basis in international law; and many others.





    • Lithuanian Claim: The claim of the Lithuanian state could rely upon both ethnic and historical grounds.


    1. The Lithuanians may argue that
      the first peoples to hold sovereignty over the region were ethnic Lithuaniansand closely related Old Prussians, and
    2. the pre-1945 population outside the cities of the Oblast was largely of Lithuanian origin. If the status of the Oblast were to be altered in the future, then, the Lithuanian state could have a strong argument for assimilating this remainder of Lithuania Minor.

    The idea of unifying the Oblast with the rest of Lithuania has strong historical precedents. Lithuanian assemblies met in Chicago and New York in 1914, The Hague in 1916 and Berne in 1917 to demand an independent Lithuania including all of Lithuania Minor. An assembly in Vilnius in 1917 restated the problem to define the new Lithuania within its “ethnographic borders,” a concept endorsed by a later assembly in Voronezh the same year.



    • The Claim of the Native Population: The right to national self-determination is one of the main cornerstones of the contemporary international legal order. Eight of Wilson’s Fourteen Points refer to such concerns. The Atlantic Charter’s third and fourth principles call for self-determination in matters of both boundaries and choice of government. The Charter of the United Nations calls for colonial powers to foster self-determination in “non-self governing territories”. That right might be interpreted as concerning:


    1. The Oblast’s postwar ethnic Russian settlers – as opposed to central Soviet or Russian authorities.
    2. the traditional population which was decimated or expelled en masseafter World War II, which is defended on the grounds that forcible deportations of native populations is clearly in violation of international law – native Königsbergers expelled after World War II, then, have a right under international law to choose to return to their native land.

      So I ask you, which option would you support in such a scenario?




    Support modern Kaliningraders in their demands of greater autonomy within the Russian Federation – and maybe a future separation from it -, which is the fairest position under modern international law, which demands non-belligerant positions (against Russia in this case) and respect for human rights – Russian settlers and their families. This is certainly the option of most Kaliningraders of Russian ethnicity, as well as most EU-politicians.


    Support Germany’s or Lithuania’s claims (or both), seeking to integrate Kaliningrad within the European Union, maybe as a sort of a Baltic territory co-administered by both Germany and Lithuania, financing the return of (families of) expellees to Königsberg, and the return of (willing) families of Russian settlers to Russia. This is the option preferred by many Germans and (I guess) most Lithuanians.


    Support the creation of a modern Baltic Prussian State (Prusa), which could help unite the Pro-Baltic (and Pro-European) attitude of Russian Kaliningraders, the will of native peoples and their families to return to East Prussia, as well as claims of EU member states to integrate Königsberg in Europe, by embracing Old Prussian history of the territory and its peoples. Modern organizations supporting the revival of the Old Prussian language would probably support its revitalization in Königsberg include the future Research Institute of Prussology and the Prussian language organization in Poland.



    http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-languages/2009/02/konigsberg-aka-kaliningrad-under-international-law-russian-german-polish-lithuanian-or-simply-prussian/
    Last edited by Aunt Hilda; 01-28-2014 at 10:12 AM.
    R.I.P Joan Rivers

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    It would be interesting to see the Kaliningrad oblast as an independent country. I wonder what it would be called. Prussia?

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    poll added.
    R.I.P Joan Rivers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Despot View Post
    It would be interesting to see the Kaliningrad oblast as an independent country. I wonder what it would be called. Prussia?
    the creation of Prusa would be the most interesting option.
    R.I.P Joan Rivers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Hilda View Post
    the creation of Prusa would be the most interesting option.
    Jesus fucking Chroist, your avatar gave me a run up the arse.

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    Let it stay Russian, but they'd better rename it to Königsberg and East-Prussian oblast/kray or Baltic oblast/kray.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hochmeister View Post
    Let it stay Russian, but they'd better rename it to Königsberg and East-Prussian oblast/kray or Baltic oblast/kray.
    I don't think they should stop with Königsberg. the Russian federation changed most toponyms.
    They should be changed back.
    R.I.P Joan Rivers

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    it was founded by crusaders led by otakar II. přemysl, so the proper name is královec.
    koenigsberg is a wrong translation and kaliningrad can go to hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RussiaPrussia View Post
    another russia bashing thread from you. You ask such a question but dont give the option to stay russian territory, all the 3 option lead to separation from russia.
    it's a ''what if'' kind of thread.
    mentioning the fact that the russian federation, under international law, does not actually have a right to govern Kaliningad is not bashing Russia, it's a fact.
    R.I.P Joan Rivers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Hilda View Post
    it's a ''what if'' kind of thread.
    mentioning the fact that the russian federation, under international law, does not actually have a right to govern Kaliningad is not bashing Russia, it's a fact.
    Having right to govern is based on one thing:

    Having enough power to secure the land from foregin or internal enemies.


    While i have'nt seen any of foregin power willing to take Kaliningrad back, neither the population shows great will to separate from Russia, although there were some incidents.

    The only way it may change is a destabilisation of Russia, due to internal problems in mainland of the country.

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