Are Boshnjaci Illiri or Slavs?

[Stefan_Dusan]

This will be Hrulj's favorite thread.

Since I hear this often (mainly Hrulj and sometimes Loki) I feel I needed to start this thread.

First mention of term "Bosniak" was done by King Tvrtko 2. I've seen Hrulj quote this before but I personally enjoy this :

create the current form Bošnjak (Bosniak), first attested in the diplomacy of Bosnian king Tvrtko II who in 1440 dispatched a delegation (Apparatu virisque insignis) to the Polish king of Hungary, Władysław Warneńczyk (1440-1444), asserting a common Slavic ancestry and language between the Bosniak and Pole.

source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks#cite_note-30

Or let's dive into Bosniak source:

Kralj Stjepan Tvrtković poslao je odmah ovome kralju "sjajno poslanstvo odličnih muževa", veli Vladislavov biograf pa nastavlja: "Ovi su, ispričavši porijeklo svoga plemena isticali, da su Bošnjacima bili isti pradjedovi kao i Poljacima te da im je zajednički jezik kojim govore i da se radi te srodnosti jezika i porijekla njihov kralj Tvrtko II živo raduje, što je Vladislav - kako se je pronio glas - sretan u svojim pothvatima"

source - Muhamed Hadžijahić - Od tradicije do identiteta: geneza nacionalnog pitanja bosanskih Muslimana, 1974, p. 7;

Please use google translator if you have hard time with ancient Illyro-Gothic language.

Let's go one more:

Whereas the Croats argue that the Orthodox are our greatest enemies and that Serbdom is the same as Orthodoxy, the Serbs wear themselves out calling our attention to some bogus history, by which they have Serbianized the whole world. We shall never deny that we belong to the South Slav family; but we shall remain Bosniaks, like our forefathers, and nothing else.

Source - Mehmed Kapetanović

Ok, maybe Bosniaks are confused people and really are mythical Illyrians? Maybe Hrulj has saw through the propaganda and …. What does genetics say? MLDP calculator

[1,] "Bosnian" "0"
[2,] "Croatian" "2.642"
[3,] "Hungarian" "4.5122"
[4,] "Slovenian" "6.6393"
[5,] "Serbian" "6.7483"
[6,] "Austrian" "7.2"
[7,] "German_V" "7.7544"
[8,] "Croatian_V" "8.1345"
[9,] "German" "8.7636"
[10,] "CEU_V" "10.139"
[11,] "Czech" "10.2669"
[12,] "German-North" "10.5669"
[13,] "Macedonian" "10.574"
[14,] "Montenegrin" "10.6658"
[15,] "Slovakian" "11.5607"
[16,] "German-South" "13.2288"
[17,] "Bulgarian" "13.3765"
[18,] "Welsh" "13.5207"
[19,] "Swedish" "13.727"
[20,] "Latvian_V" "14.0488"
[21,] "CEU" "14.4513"
[22,] "British" "15.1951"
[23,] "Ukrainian-West" "15.4156"
[24,] "Norwegian_V" "15.7417"
[25,] "Gagauz" "16.1056"
[26,] "Swedish_V" "16.2779"
[27,] "Romania" "16.4299"
[28,] "Orcadian" "16.6646"
[29,] "Ukrainian_V" "16.8098"
[30,] "Ukrainian-Center" "17.8838"
[31,] "Mordovian_V" "17.9075"
[32,] "Swiss" "18.4334"
[33,] "Tatar_Kryashen" "19.5742"
[34,] "Sorb" "19.6802"
[35,] "French" "19.8562"
[36,] "Belarusian_V" "20.424"
[37,] "Italian_North" "20.6403"
[38,] "Ukrainian-East" "21.4021"
[39,] "Provancal" "21.4033"
[40,] "Russian_cossack" "21.9297"

[Cleitus]

Slavs mixed with Illyrians

[The Illyrian Warrior]

This will be Hrulj's favorite thread.

Since I hear this often (mainly Hrulj and sometimes Loki) I feel I needed to start this thread.

First mention of term "Bosniak" was done by King Tvrtko 2. I've seen Hrulj quote this before but I personally enjoy this :



source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks#cite_note-30

Or let's dive into Bosniak source:



source - Muhamed Hadžijahić - Od tradicije do identiteta: geneza nacionalnog pitanja bosanskih Muslimana, 1974, p. 7;

Please use google translator if you have hard time with ancient Illyro-Gothic language.

Let's go one more:



Source - Mehmed Kapetanović

Ok, maybe Bosniaks are confused people and really are mythical Illyrians? Maybe Hrulj has saw through the propaganda and …. What does genetics say? MLDP calculator

Hrulj is confused and delusional to start a serious debate with, he even deny Bosniaks South Slavic heritage and Serbo-Croatian language as his own.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Slavs mixed with Illyrians

It looks from these results they're more slavs mixed with Germans. Either way where is evidence and how much Illyrian admixture they have, Hruljski is dying to know answers

[Liac]

Slavs.

[Cleitus]

It looks from these results they're more slavs mixed with Germans. Either way where is evidence and how much Illyrian admixture they have, Hruljski is dying to know answers

Illyrians were Germanic

[safinator]

According to Eupedia,56 % of I2a + 16 % of R1a= 72 % Slavic male line
Serbs from Bosnia are 31% of I2a + 13.5 % of R1a= 44.5 % Slavic male line

[RandoBloom]

This will be Hrulj's favorite thread.

Since I hear this often (mainly Hrulj and sometimes Loki) I feel I needed to start this thread.

First mention of term "Bosniak" was done by King Tvrtko 2. I've seen Hrulj quote this before but I personally enjoy this :



source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks#cite_note-30

Or let's dive into Bosniak source:



source - Muhamed Hadžijahić - Od tradicije do identiteta: geneza nacionalnog pitanja bosanskih Muslimana, 1974, p. 7;

Please use google translator if you have hard time with ancient Illyro-Gothic language.

Let's go one more:



Source - Mehmed Kapetanović

Ok, maybe Bosniaks are confused people and really are mythical Illyrians? Maybe Hrulj has saw through the propaganda and …. What does genetics say? MLDP calculator

Of course he mentions comonalities. No, he will emphasize differences as reasons to help Bosnia with Crusade of Varna

He was relating to linguistics rather than genetics.

And thirdly, what are these numbers suposed to be?

[RandoBloom]

According to Eupedia,56 % of I2a + 16 % of R1a= 72 % Slavic male line
Serbs from Bosnia are 31% of I2a + 13.5 % of R1a= 44.5 % Slavic male line

Russians:

Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) – 19.8% to 62.7%, with an average of 46.7%
Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) – 0% to 26.8%, with an average of 17.6% (All regions), and 23.5% (Central and South Russia)
Haplogroup N (Y-DNA) – 5.4% to 53.7%, with averages of 21.6% (All regions), and 10% (Central and South Russia)
Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA) – 0% to 14%, with an average of 5.8%

Ukrainians

In comparison to their neighbors, Ukrainians have a similar percentage of Haplogroup R1a (43%) in their population as do Poles, Russians and Belarusians (55%, 46%, and 49%, respectively). Unlike Poles and Russians, Ukrainians have a high percentage of I2a2, typical of the Danube region, but a smaller percentage than Russians of the N1c1 lineage found among Finnic, Baltics and Siberian populations and also less Haplogroup R1b than Poles.[74][78][79] In terms of haplogroup distribution, the genetic pattern of Ukrainians most closely resembles that of Belarusians.

Belarusians have a high percentage of male ancestry Haplogroup R1a (51%), similar to Russians, Ukrainians and Poles. Such large frequencies of R1a have been found only in Eastern Europe and India.[18]
Genetic studies show that genetically Belarusians have close genetic similarities with Poles, Russians and Ukrainians, which belong to the same group. A study of the Y chromosome in East Slavs groups shows that there is no significant variation in the Y chromosome between Belarusians, Poles, central-southern Russians and Ukrainians, and it is overlapped by their vast similarities, thus revealing an overwhelmingly shared patrilineal ancestry.[19][20][21] In terms of haplogroup distribution, the genetic pattern of Belarusians most closely resembles that of Ukrainians.
A genetic portrait of modern Belarusians documents a separation of subpopulations along the south-north line, which is demonstrated particularly in distribution of Y chromosomal lineages R1b, I1a and I1b, N3 and G-chromosomes, has been noted; east-west gradient is insignificant.[22]

Czechs
In their Y-DNA haplogroups, which are inherited along the male line, Czechs have shown a mix of Eastern and Western European traits. 34.2% of Czech males belong to R1a. Large frequencies of R1a have been found in Eastern Europe among Slavs and in India.[24] According to a 2000 study by Semino, 35.6% of Czech and Slovak males have haplogroup R1b, which is very common in Western Europe among Germanic and Celtic nations.[25]
A high frequency of mutation of the G551D gene CFTR (cystic fibrosis transmembrane conductance regulator), causing cystic fibrosis is found in the Czech Republic, Austria, and among the Celtic nations: Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, Ireland and Brittany.[26]
About 3% of inhabitants of Moravia have also intermixed with Central Asian nomadic tribes, who migrated into Central and Eastern Europe in the early Middle Ages.[27]

I couldnt find any information about Poles.
One thing that does show up is R1a in large quantities in these undoubtedly slavic nations.
I2 is not conected with Slavs in any regards, apart from people asuming it is, due to people having it speaking somewhat similar language to slavic.

[Stefan_Dusan]

According to Eupedia,56 % of I2a + 16 % of R1a= 72 % Slavic male line
Serbs from Bosnia are 31% of I2a + 13.5 % of R1a= 44.5 % Slavic male line

It's very risky to equate I2a or any haplogroup with a specific ethnicity. For example, Drawing Live and another Albanian have it. Are they slavs? Whereas I don't (I2*) am I not slav?