R1a1a7 - the new R1a clade, and Slavs

[Erik]

But I should like to know if there is found some R1a1a7 west of the Oder, for example
in West-Germany or France?

[Hweinlant]

How low can you guys go ? Really ? NE Europe was part of Hermanarics Goth Empire hundreds of years prior a single Slav put his foot there.

Lets see what Jordanes said:

Hermanaric fought and conguered warlike northerners as:
Thiudos Inaunxis Vasinabroncas Merens Mordens Imniscaris ..

This is People of Aunus, Vepsians, Meryans, Mordvinians etc..

These all are Finnic people of NE Europe. These guys are chronologically from Gulf of Finland to Volga river. None of these warlike people are Slavs. Slavs are mentioned separate by Jordanes, as race of cowards living at the swamps.

Many of these people are mentioned at the Russian chronicles as founders of the Russian state. Like Vepsians and the Chud'. Geez.

[Jarl]

But I should like to know if there is found some R1a1a7 west of the Oder, for example
in West-Germany or France?

West of Oder - yes. West of Rhine - no. Apparently, R1a1a7 seems to be almost exclusively associated with Slavs and Slavic expansions. In Scandinavia and Britain older clades are present but no or little R1a1a7.


Just have a look:

http://chrobacja.svasti.org/R1a1a7.gif


It seems largely absent from Northern and Western Germany. Its to be present in East Germany, Bohemia and some regions of South Germany.

How low can you guys go ? Really ? NE Europe was part of Hermanarics Goth Empire hundreds of years prior a single Slav put his foot there.

Lets see what Jordanes said:

Hermanaric fought and conguered warlike northerners as:
Thiudos Inaunxis Vasinabroncas Merens Mordens Imniscaris ..

This is People of Aunus, Vepsians, Meryans, Mordvinians etc..

These all are Finnic people of NE Europe. These guys are chronologically from Gulf of Finland to Volga river. None of these warlike people are Slavs. Slavs are mentioned separate by Jordanes, as race of cowards living at the swamps.

Many of these people are mentioned at the Russian chronicles as founders of the Russian state. Like Vepsians and the Chud'. Geez.

First of all Jordanes also mentions that one Gothic king conquered Egypt, another made a war on Athenes, and another made an alliance with Alexander the Great.... so I would be very careful when reading his excerpts about some dubious "Gothic Empire".

The truth is that Gothic influence extended little far beyond the Black Sea steppes, and did not even encompass the whole phenomenon which we now call the "Chernyakov Culture". Jordanes says:

"XXIII (116) Soon Geberich, king of the Goths, departed from human affairs and Hermanaric, noblest of the Amali, succeeded to the throne. He subdued many warlike peoples of the north and made them obey his laws, and some of our ancestors have justly compared him to Alexander the Great. Among the tribes he conquered were the Golthescytha, Thiudos, Inaunxis, Vasinabroncae, Merens, Mordens, Imniscaris, Rogas, Tadzans, Athaul, Navego, Bubegenae and Coldae."

And it is almost certain that Gothic influence, not to mention some military presence, never extended as far as Estonia and the Chudes. Jordanes was a Gothic historian at the court of a Gothic king, Gunthigisa, writing a "Gothic history" for his monarch. He lists all known obscure tribes of Sarmatia as vassals of the Goths - Slavs, Balts (Aesti), Iranians (Golthescytha) and Finns alike.

[Jarl]

None of these warlike people are Slavs. Slavs are mentioned separate by Jordanes, as race of cowards living at the swamps.

This is what he wrote on Slavs:

"Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart.

(...)

These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venethi, Antes and Sclaveni. Though they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins, yet at that time they were all obedient to Hermanaric's commands. (120) This ruler also subdued by his wisdom and might the race of the Aesti, who dwell on the farthest shore of the German Ocean, and ruled all the nations of Scythia and Germany by his own prowess alone.

(...)

But disliking to remain under the rule of the Huns, he withdrew a little from them and strove to show his courage by moving his forces against the country of the Antes. When he attacked them, he was beaten in the first encounter. Thereafter he did valiantly and, as a terrible example, crucified their king, named Boz, together with his sons and seventy nobles, and left their bodies hanging there to double the fear of those who had surrendered. (248) "
"


Now, that does not sound like a description of cowards...

[Monolith]

Just have a look:

http://chrobacja.svasti.org/R1a1a7.gif

Thanks for the link. I was unaware that there still exist people who care about the old identity of Lesser Poland. Or is it only a wishful thinking of some neo-pagans (as observed on that web site), who are opposed to all things Christian?

[Jarl]

Thanks for the link. I was unaware that there still exist people who care about the old identity of Lesser Poland. Or is it only a wishful thinking of some neo-pagans (as observed on that web site), who are opposed to all things Christian?

It seems you are correct. Here is a good article and cranial study on Croats:

http://www.cmj.hr/2004/45/4/15311416.pdf



Yellow underlining - Czech

Red underlining - Polish

Blue underlining - Slovakia

Pink/Violet - Austria/Slovenia


Nin - Croatian capital falls almost ideally into the same spot as Polish - Lechitic Cedynia series.


Quote:

The positions of the analyzed Croatian sites in relation to the observed clusters were as follows. Sites from the east Adriatic coast: Nin, Bribir, Mravinci, and Danilo were located in the lower right part of the plot in the cluster of Polish sites. Nin, the most important early medieval Croatian site, occupied almost the same position as Cedynia, an early medieval site from northern Poland.

[Monolith]

Nin - Croatian capital falls almost ideally into the same spot as Polish - Lechitic Cedynia series.

The contemporary populations in question are not as close as their medieval counterparts used to be, due to a number of factors. One of such is definitely the indigenous paleobalkanic admixture, which seems to be a defining factor in the ethnogenesis here (mainly in the south), though I suspect the original Slavic phenotypes were not as successful in their new environment, as the Dinaric ones were, which resulted in a lower survival rate of the original ethnic Slavs. However, the latter is only an assumption of mine.

[Agrippa]

The contemporary populations in question are not as close as their medieval counterparts used to be, due to a number of factors. One of such is definitely the indigenous paleobalkanic admixture, which seems to be a defining factor in the ethnogenesis here (mainly in the south), though I suspect the original Slavic phenotypes were not as successful in their new environment, as the Dinaric ones were, which resulted in a lower survival rate of the original ethnic Slavs. However, the latter is only an assumption of mine.

No, its a fact. If looking at the bigger picture, the mountainous people of South Eastern Europe, the herders in particular one might add, were subjected to the long term trend of Dinarisation.

Everytime Leptodolichomorphic variants (Nordoid - Mediterranid) entered the region, they just changed the picture for a certain time, but soon afterwards, they were subjected to the same process of Dinarisation again. So the Slavs were not the first people which changed that way.

They just stopped the trend for a time, but soon afterwards they mixed with locals, the respective genes entered their genpool and the selective pressures resulted, even though the Germanic and Slavic influences were still present, in an even faster and more extreme Dinarisation, which produced the modern Dinarid type didnt exist in this typical form over such wide areas before.

This has been proven by the studies of Zivko Mikic:

Abstract
This essay is about the development of human populations in the central Balkans by tracing the brachycephalisation process during the Iron Age. One should emphasize that the oldest brachycephalic skulls were found in the osteological material from the Iron Gates. The brachycephalisation process was disrupted by the infiltration of other populations during the Roman and Migration period. However, while the full extent of the process became apparent in the late Middle Ages, the process itself has not stopped during the last two millennia and the outcome is the emergence of the Dinaric anthropological type as a substrate of the modern population of the region.

http://www.vml.de/d/inhalt.php?ISBN=3-89646-616-X

Dinarisation is a selective process which can work on different populations, similar to Alpinisation, and being typical for the forested mountains and in particular herder populations of that areas in Europe. Coloration is of secondary importance.

In Austria and Romania f.e. the correlation of altitude + herder = Dinaroid is quite obvious.

The habitat of the chamois shows a strong correlation to the Dinarisation areas: