Slavic- Germanic

[Cail]

From the linguistic point of view, Slavic languages are much closer to each other than Germanic are (having split almost a thousand years later). Also, Slavs have, how should i say it, a stronger kinship ties probably?

There was a lot of intra-Slavic conflicts in the past (Russians-Poles in the north, Croats-Serbs-Bosnians in the south), also conflicts over identities (Russians-Ukrainians/Belorussians, Bulgarians-Macedonians) and lots of minor incidents, but as i see the situation now, Slavs start to come at peace with each others. Less and less fights/holywars on forums, better attitudes to other Slavs IRL (i travel Slavic countries a lot in studies), more interest in common in their culture. I'm glad it is so. We got screwed by Communism and our own infighting severely, and i hope a Renaissance is in order .

[Jarl]

Böse böse Deutsche!

By no means "the Germans". Rather the junker elites of Prussia and the upper classes of the Habsburg Monarchy. Pan-Slavism started as a movement of Slavic nationalists within the Austrian Empire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Slavism


It became popular among Polish nationalists who sought freedom from Russia, and perceived the German Empire and Prussia as the main threat to Polish independence. Pan-Slavism was not a homogenous movement, and it is important to note that many of its proponenets advocated russification. Some also opposed the Roman Catholic Church.

So I would not equate the common sense of Slavic identity with Pan-Slavism alone. There is much more to it. History and tradtions play a role too. Heritage of Kievan Rus and Orthodox traditions among the Eastern Slavs. Catholicism among the Western Slavs. Russian occupation and political traditions of I and II Rzeczpospolita among Poles, Ukrainians and Belorussians. Ottoman occupation, struggle for independence from Austria in case of the Balkan Slavs as well as Czechs and Slovaks.

Finally, I would not exaggerate this inter-Slavic affinity too much. I would not risk saying that most Western Slavs, like Czechs or Poles, feel culturally closer to the Russians or Serbs than to the Germans. Probably some/many do, but I can't see this sense of brotherhood clearly enough to be sure of it.

When I first saw this thread, I hoped it might be a discussion of an equivalent 'Slavo-Germanic' identity, that tackled eastern Germany's history in a more honest way than many are willing to.

That is an interesting notion. And if such identity ever existed, I would look for it in the mixed Polish-German or Czech-German communities of former Prussia and Austria-Hungary (or the nobility of both). However, I guess that most often this was simply an unstable transition stage before converting to "Germanic" - the culture of the political elites and the dominant culture in these XIX century empires.


It definitely ended after WW II. Currently, I guess, such phenomenon has to be limited to Polish and German Silesians, and perhaps some of the Sorbs in Lusatia.

[Jäger]

And if such identity ever existed, I would look for it in the mixed Polish-German or Czech-German communities of former Prussia and Austria-Hungary (or the nobility of both).

My grandfather hails from Karlsbad, and I can tell you, these were the places with the least interest in anything Slavic (from a German perspective, and most likely vice versa).
The old Prussian territories were also among the most avid NS supporters.

As far as the question goes, I think most Germanic countries had at one time the chance of acquiring great power without the help of of their cousins (Sweden, England, Germany), after all, amalgamation has the only purpose of increasing power.
We all failed to keep this power, due to internal wars, e.g. the only reason why America managed to secure its power base, was the absence of any serious rival in their area.
If England would have joined in "Germano-Polish quarrels" on the German side, Germanics most likely would rule this world.

[Jarl]

My grandfather hails from Karlsbad, and I can tell you, these were the places with the least interest in anything Slavic (from a German perspective, and most likely vice versa).
The old Prussian territories were also among the most avid NS supporters.

Depends which "old Prussian" territories. I dont know about Karlove Vary, but in Silesia, Polish language and ethnicity were aliveand there was a strong sense of Slavic identity. There were separate Polish guilds in some Silesian towns in XVIII century. It all changed after Prussia introduced germanisation. Yet up unti XXth century Polish culture was not eradicated, and many Silesian Poles were active members of different socialist/workers movements. Even today there are nearly 150,000 Germans living in Silesia. And many, if not most Silesians have mixed Polish-German ancestry.

In Prussian Mazurenland this was different. Polish was the language of the backward rural class that never underwent national awakening, and had some weak sense of local "Prussian" identity.

"Wo sich aufhort ie Kultur, fangt sich zu leben an Mazur!"


Mazurenland and Ermland was heavily germanised. Unlike in Silesia where uprisings took place, in Mazuren very few people had some Slavic or Polish identity. Particularly after Hitler's rise to power there was a heavy pressure from the government to root out everything which presented a threat to the germanisation of East Prussia. Pro-Polish elements were persecuted by all means possible. Most often economic pressure. By WWII, there was no local identity. There was German identity. But definitely even there, in East Prussia, many people did not simply consider themselves simply "Germanic" at the ethnic level. At least not until XX century.


As for NS-support, I think most came from Protestant regions. The Kashuben - Catholic Pomeranians, had a clear sense of their local, Slavic, heritage and felt close to Poland. Pomeranian dialects were all eradicated by germanisation in Western Pomerania (apart from Slovincians). Only in Royal Prussia, which was a part of the Kindgom of Poland, and then Polish corridor, the Kashuben culture survived. Like Catholich Silesians, Kashuben never supported NS, and only 2-3% of them signed the Kashubenvolk list. Vast majority has always considered themselves Polish.

[esaima]

From the linguistic point of view, Slavic languages are much closer to each other than Germanic are (having split almost a thousand years later).

Really?Can any of linguists comment it?I think Swedish and German share lot of similarities, i can not say they are less similar to each other than let´s say Polish and Russian.Not talking about German-Dutch relationship.

[Svanhild]

And yet I feel closer to plenty of Russians than I do with Austrians, on a cultural level...
Germandom is too old, and with too many differing substrata in its extremities to be a 'natural' thing any more, I suspect. To non-philologists, anyway. You mention looks, yet I personally don't look like many Prussians or Swabians.

I don't know how you look and I don't know your individual life history but I dare to say that the ordinary Englishmen feels closer to Germans or Danes. You wear a Russian usertitle and I know too less about you to interpret it in one way or another.

The nationally minded English seem quite happy with a 'Celto-Germanic' label, interestingly enough. When I first saw this thread, I hoped it might be a discussion of an equivalent 'Slavo-Germanic' identity, that tackled eastern Germany's history in a more honest way than many are willing to.

In my estimation an equivalent Slavo-Germanic identity is a physical impossibility. There's not only the Germanic side to look upon. How are the feelings of the Slavs with respect to Germanics? Do they really like us and see us as friends? My impressions tell me something else entirely.

When talking about Germanics in Europe you're effectively talking about Germans as the majority:

~ 9 Mio. (ethnical) Swedes
~ 4.5 Mio. (see above) Norwegians
~ 5,3 Mio. (...) Danes
~ 13,6 Mio. Dutchmen
~ 42 Mio. English people
~5,7 Mio. Flemish people
~ 315.000 Icelanders
~ 600.000 Germanics elsewhere in Europe
-------------------------
~ 80 Mio. Non German Germanics



~ 74 Mio. (ethnical) Germans
~ 8 Mio. (ethnical) Austrians
~ 4.9 Mio. Swiss Germans
~ 700.000 Germans elsewhere in Europe
----------------------------
~ 87.5 Mio. German Germanics in Europe


As you can imagine a Slavo-Germanic identity can only work if Slavs make peace with the Germans as the predominant Germanic element in Europe. Is the Polish soul truly in peace with the Germans? Is the Czech soul truly in peace with the Germans? Is the Serbian soul truly in peace with the Germans? Is the Russian soul truly in peace with the Germans? Do they feel solidarity at eye level? No, the resentments and reservations are large. We are neither entirely hated nor wholeheartedly liked and only tolerated by their relevant majority. The German is a good customer and visitor if he opens the purse but he should please keep his trap shut if possible.

It's wrong to point your finger on us. Don't forget about the other side. Slavs stick mainly to Slavs and Germanics should stick to Germanics. But I'm not against interaction and contact with each other. For that reason I'm not on exclusive clubs like Germanic World or Skadi but here. Trough interaction we can learn from each other and improve our mutual understanding.

[Jarl]

Really?Can any of linguists comment it?I think Swedish and German share lot of similarities, i can not say they are less similar to each other than let´s say Polish and Russian.Not talking about German-Dutch relationship.

I think it is far from being certan when Slavic languages started to differentiate. But most certainly they were not homogenous 1000 years ago. The prevalent opinion is that the split of proto-Slavic occured after VIth century. But definitely even by 1000 AD Slavs could understand each other. Overall, Slavic languages tend to be mutally intelligible to a cosinderable degree, particularly between neighbours.

However, I doubt that Polish and Croatian are more similar than, say, Norwegian and Swedish, or Bavarian German to Swiss German. Perhaps there is greater differentiation between the major groups like Nordic languages versus High German versus English.

[Jäger]

Vast majority has always considered themselves Polish.

Yes, exactly my point, there never has been a "Germanic-Slavic" identity, most of the time they choose sides, because it seemed so mutually exclusive in their political environment.

Anyways, from a political point of view, language is the decisive player here, in thus first comes a strong nation state, then conquest, then assimilation.

[Jarl]

In my estimation an equivalent Slavo-Germanic identity is a physical impossibility. There's not only the Germanic side to look upon. How are the feelings of the Slavs with respect to Germanics? Do they really like us and see us as friends? My impressions tell me something else entirely.

I do not really see much enmity now between Poles and Germans. Its 65 years since WW II and things change quite noticebly here. Most people do not hold any real anti-German grudges.

As you can imagine a Slavo-Germanic identity can only work if Slavs make peace with the Germans as the predominant Germanic element in Europe. Is the Polish soul truly in peace with the Germans? Is the Czech soul truly in peace with the Germans? Is the Serbian soul truly in peace with the Germans? Is the Russian soul truly in peace with the Germans? Do they feel solidarity at eye level? No, the resentments and reservations are large. We are neither entirely hated nor wholeheartedly liked and only tolerated by their relevant majority. The German is a good customer and visitor if he opens the purse but he should please keep his trap shut if possible.

Definitely if two cultures coexist for a long time, often one tends to be more dominant. But this does not have to be the case. In Poland and in the Austrian Empire, a fair degree of balance was achieved. At least until XIX century. Germanic, Slavic, and even Jewish communities existed there for centuries keeping their own language, customs and traditions.

Yes, exactly my point, there never has been a "Germanic-Slavic" identity, most of the time they choose sides, because it seemed so mutually exclusive in their political environment.

Anyways, from a political point of view, language is the decisive player here, in thus first comes a strong nation state, then conquest, then assimilation.

Definitely I agree. There is no such thing as Celto-Germanic or Germanic-Slavic in a sense eqivalent to simply Germanic or Slavic... This tends to be a transtion stage before conversion. Many Silesians or Mazurians considered themselves "local" and distinct from Poles, but not yet really German either. This was a typical result of germanisation. People graually lost their identity, or failed to discover it. It was replaced by another one. Language often marked the last barrier preventing people from full conversion.

[Cail]

Really?Can any of linguists comment it?

Actually, i am a linguist, and Balto-Slavic studies are my specialization .

I think Swedish and German share lot of similarities, i can not say they are less similar to each other than let´s say Polish and Russian.Not talking about German-Dutch relationship.

Dutch-German are basically dialects of the same language (in a broader sense), same as Swedish-Norwegian-Danish. But Polish and Russian are definitely much closer than Swedish-German. You can basically take constructions from one language and use it in another with little change.

Of course you can find two Germanic languages that will be closer to each other than some two of the Slavic, we're speaking in general. And in general the three main Euro families go in this order (from most diverged to least) - Germanic, Romance, Slavic.

However, I doubt that Polish and Croatian are more similar than, say, Norwegian and Swedish, or Bavarian German to Swiss German.

Yes, taking into accout that Polish and Croatian/Serbian are the most distant Slavic languages (from each other), and Norwegian-Swedish and Bavarian-Swiss are the closest.

Germanic divergence is dated about the middle of Ist millenia B.C. While Slavs had yet in VI c. A.D. spoken a uniform language with little or no dialect variation from Novgorod to Moravia to Thessaloniki.