Reincarnation

[Anthropos]

”However that may be, the idea of reincarnation too, like that of evolution, is a very modern idea; it appears to have materialized around 1830 or 1848 in certain French socialist circles. Most revolutionaries of that time were ’mystics’ in the worst sense of the word, and everyone knows of the extravagances occasioned among them by the theories of Fourier, Saint-Simon, and others of this kind. For these socialists the idea in question, whose inventors were probably Fourier and Pierre Leroux, had as its sole purpose to explain the inequalities of social conditions, or at least to allay what they found shocking in them, by attributing them to the consequences of actions accomplished in some prior existence. The Theosophists sometimes also proffered this ’reason’ although they generally stressed it less than the spiritists. At root, a theory such as this explains nothing, only serving to push back the difficulty, if indeed there is a difficulty; for if there was really equality at the outset it could never have been broken at least as long as one does not formally contest the principle of sufficient reason; but in this last case the question no longer arises and the very idea of natural law which was to figure in the solution no longer means anything. Moreover, there is still much more than this to say about reincarnation; for from the viewpoint of pure metaphysics one can demonstrate its absolute impossibility, and do so without any exceptions like those conceded by the ’H B of L’ [Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor]. Moreover, here we mean the impossibility of reincarnation, not only on earth but also on any other planet, as well as of bizarre notions like the multiplicity of simultaneous incarnations on different planets; for the Theosophists, as we have seen, there are very long series of incarnations on each of the planets that are part of the same system. The same metaphysical demonstration is equally valid against such theories as the ’eternal return’ of Nietzsche; [...] We will only say, in order to reduce the claims of the Theosophists to their just value, that no traditional doctrine has ever admitted reincarnation and this idea was entirely foreign to all of antiquity, even though some have wished to support it by tendentious interpretations of certain more or less symbolic texts. Even in Buddhism it is only a question of ’changes of state’, which obviously is not the same thing as a series of earthly lives; and, we repeat, it is only symbolically that different states have sometimes been described as ’lives’ by analogy with the present state of the human being and with the conditions of his terrestrial existence. Let us also explain that despite the false interpretations current today, reincarnation has nothing to do with the ’metempsychosis’ of the Orphics and Pythagoreans, any more than with the theories of certain Jewish Kabbalists on the ’embryonic state’ and the ’revolution of souls’. The truth is therefore simply this: the first spiritists of Allan Kardec’s school belonged to the socialist circles we spoke of, and it is there that they borrowed this idea, as did certain writers of the same period; and it was in the French spiritist school that Mme Blavatsky in turn found this idea as the occultists of the Papusian school did a little later; [...]”

René Guénon, Theosophy: History of a Pseudo-Religion, Hillsdale NY: Sophia Perennis, 2nd impr., 2004, 104-106.

• Many scholars have since agreed with René Guénon that reincarnation is a wholly Western concept; this despite the fact that Guénon is not held in high esteem in academic circles.
• There are no serious translations of traditional Hindu literature where the word 'reincarnation' occurs.

I am quoting Guénon since unlike many others he actually said something about the true origins of 'reincarnation' providing an account of how this idea became so widespread.

DISCUSSION: What did you know about reincarnation, and what was your source of information?

[Óttar]

Hinduism

Main article: Reincarnation and Hinduism
According to Hinduism, the soul (atman) is immortal, while the body is subject to birth and death. The Bhagavad Gita states that:

Worn-out garments are shed by the body; Worn-out bodies are shed by the dweller within the body. New bodies are donned by the dweller, like garments. (Verse 2:22)[17]

The idea that the soul (of any living being with a consciousness) reincarnates is intricately linked to karma, another concept first recorded in the Upanishads. Karma (literally: action) is the sum of one's actions and the force that determines one's next reincarnation. The cycle of death and rebirth, governed by karma, is referred to as samsara. [18]

Hinduism teaches that the soul goes on repeatedly being passed from body to body through the physical cycle of death and birth. One is reborn on account of desire: a person desires to be born because he or she wants to enjoy worldly pleasures, which can be enjoyed only through a body.[19] Hinduism does not teach that all worldly pleasures are sinful, but it teaches that they can never bring deep, lasting happiness or peace (ānanda). According to the Hindu sage Adi Shankaracharya, the world - as we ordinarily understand it - is like a dream: fleeting and illusory. To be trapped in samsara is a result of ignorance of the true nature of our existence.

After many births, every person eventually becomes dissatisfied with the limited happiness that worldly pleasures can bring. At this point, a person begins to seek higher forms of happiness, which can be attained only through spiritual experience. When, after much spiritual practice (sādhanā), a person finally realizes his or her own divine nature—i.e., realizes that the true "self" is the immortal soul rather than the body or the ego—all desires for the pleasures of the world will vanish, since they will seem insipid compared to spiritual ānanda. When all desire has vanished, the person will not be reborn anymore.[20]

When the cycle of rebirth thus comes to an end, a person is said to have attained moksha, or salvation from samsara.[21] While all schools of thought agree that moksha implies the cessation of worldly desires and freedom from the cycle of birth and death, the exact definition of salvation depends on individual beliefs. For example, followers of the Advaita Vedanta school (often associated with jnana yoga) believe that they will spend eternity absorbed in the perfect peace and happiness that comes with the realization that all existence is One (Brahman), and that the immortal soul is part of that existence. The followers of full or partial Dvaita schools ("dualistic" schools, such as bhakti yoga), on the other hand, perform their worship with the goal of spending eternity in a loka, (spiritual world or heaven), in the blessed company of the Supreme being (i.e. Krishna or Vishnu for the Vaishnavas and Shiva for the dualistic schools of Shaivism).[22] The principal Hindu Gods are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and their consorts Saraswati, Lakshmi and Parvati. While there is hardly any text describing reincarnation of Brahma and Saraswati, the rest of the Gods are known to have reincarnated in various forms under different circumstances. Lord Vishnu is known for His ten reincarnations, namely Dashavatars.

Greek Philosophy

An early example of reincarnation in Western cultures comes from the Orphic or Dionysus mystery religions dating back between the 6th and 4th century BC, according to which the soul was breathed into the human body through the Aither (air) where the host, or human, would atone for the sins from the inheritance of titan heritage. The soul would spend 10 transformations across a span of one thousand years each before atonement and become one with the gods; by living one's life as a philosopher it would only take three of these transformations.[citation needed]

Among the ancient Greeks, Socrates, Pythagoras, and Plato may have believed in or taught the doctrine of reincarnation. Several ancient sources affirm that Pythagoras claimed he could remember his past lives.[26] An association between Pythagorean philosophy and reincarnation was routinely accepted throughout antiquity.

In Plato's Phaedo dialogue, Socrates, prior to his death, states; "I am confident that there truly is such a thing as living again, and that the living spring from the dead." However, Xenophon, our other main informant of Socrates' life, does not mention the latter as believing in reincarnation.

Plato presented detailed accounts of reincarnation in his major works. It may be questioned whether Plato's accounts, such as the Myth of Er, which also contain many fabulous details irrelevant to reincarnation, were intended to be taken literally. Marsilio Ficino (Platonic Theology 17.3-4) argued that Plato's references to reincarnation were intended allegorically.

In the Hermetica, a Graeco-Egyptian series of writings on cosmology and spirituality attributed to Hermes Trismegistus/Thoth, the doctrine of reincarnation is central.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

The OP reminds me of my postmodernist history teacher telling the class that Western Civilisation didn't exist despite a demarcation being made between East and West by Herodotos, the Father of History. He also claimed the idea of a Nation only went back to the 19th century when the word natio meaning a group of people with a common origin or birth is attested from the earliest times.

Provocateurs.

[Anthropos]

WEAKipedia.

[Anthropos]

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

The OP reminds me of my postmodernist history teacher telling the class that Western Civilisation didn't exist despite a demarcation being made between East and West by Herodotos, the Father of History. He also claimed the idea of a Nation only went back to the 19th century when the word natio meaning a group of people with a common origin or birth is attested from the earliest times.

Provocateurs.

It's easy to see who is a provocateur, by the way. You can't even stay on topic. And Nodens will join you any minute.

[Nodens]

And Nodens will join you any minute.

And you called me obsessive.

While I somewhat suspect translation/semantic issues to be the real culprit, the immediate question would be as to the date and nature of the first use of the term in the English language. If it can be shown to have occurred prior to the 19th Century and to have referred simply to the transmigration of the soul, Guénon's argument is demonstrably false.

[Anthropos]

And you called me obsessive.

While I somewhat suspect translation/semantic issues to be the real culprit, the immediate question would be as to the date and nature of the first use of the term in the English language. If it can be shown to have occurred prior to the 19th Century and to have referred simply to the transmigration of the soul, Guénon's argument is demonstrably false.

I called you obsessive (elsewhere) because you preferred to make statements about me instead of on topic. But let's forget about it; I only saw that you were browsing the thread while I was replying to Ottar (who also made statements about me instead of on topic).

As for your argument, it's only 'if'.

That said, we are not merely speaking of the word, but of the concept at the same time. It should be clear from the quote that Guénon's point does not concern whether the word 'reincarnation' was present in Buddhism, among Orphics, among Pythagoreans and among Jewish Kabbalists. Indeed he did not expect to find it there, and his claim is stronger than that. I have studied all of those things anyway and never did I come across anything like that typically modern, Western idea of 'reincarnation'.

Without implicating anyone (in particular), I suspect that people do not like for their prejudiced opinions to be challenged, and Westerners generally are much more under the influence of neospiritualist ideas than traditional ideas.

[Klärchen]

And again I have only German sources...

I'm going to become the Miss Marple of Google here...

Anyway, tomorrow...

[Nodens]

I called you obsessive (elsewhere) because you preferred to make statements about me instead of on topic.

When I called you out for doing likewise.

But let's forget about it;

As amusing as it would be to continue, such is probably for the best.

As for your argument, it's only 'if'.

Of course, Wikipedia wasn't helpful on this point and I really don't think the issue merits real effort.

That said, we are not merely speaking of the word, but of the concept at the same time. It should be clear from the quote that Guénon's point does not concern whether the word 'reincarnation' was present in Buddhism, among Orphics, among Pythagoreans and among Jewish Kabbalists. Indeed he did not expect to find it there, and his claim is stronger than that. I have studied all of those things anyway and never did I come across anything like that typically modern, Western idea of 'reincarnation'.

I'm generally inclined to agree, in as much as most contemporary 'Western Ideas' are essentially vacuous. Further debate is contingent upon the definition of reincarnation that Guénon supposes and the nature of the doctrines that he considers it to be falsely applied to.

Without implicating anyone (in particular), I suspect that people do not like for their prejudiced opinions to be challenged,

You don't say.

and Westerners generally are much more under the influence of neospiritualist ideas than traditional ideas.

I'll agree with the General but not the Particulars.

[Anthropos]

No Nodens, I had not even noticed you when you started to analyse (sic) my character.

[Nodens]

No Nodens, I had not even noticed you when you started to analyse (sic) my character.

I never suggested otherwise.