Whose genetic influence was stronger in Sicily: Phoenicians or Normans?

[Sikeliot]

Northern European ancestry very rarely exceeds 15% even in Palermo.
Southwest Asian is around the same percentage, slightly higher.
West Asian is often close to 25%.

Which had more genetic influence; Phoenicians or Normans?

Arguments on each side..

Normans:
- Normans were more recent settlers, so it is likely that their genes had less time to diffuse and dilute, whereas Phoenician settlement was 3000 years ago.
- Phoenicians were always at odds with the Greeks, and the Phoenician settlements were eventually Hellenized and settled by Greeks.
- The Romans recorded that all Phoenicians and Carthaginians were expelled from Sicily.
- Some people from Palermo have shown to have elevated levels of Northern European influence.


Phoenicians:
- SW Asian genes are just as high as Northern European amongst the average Sicilian.
- Norman settlers were ruling elites and consisted mostly of men, and the population of the island was large enough when they settled they could have been easily absorbed; Phoenicians settled when the island was comparably quite underpopulated.
- Northern European genes are so low, amongst the lowest in Europe, that if the Norman influence had any appreciable impact, we are to believe that Sicilians had almost no Northern European influence prior to their arrival. For a European population, this is a very strong assumption to make.
- On the other hand, the SW Asian is the highest in Europe apart from Cyprus, which is high for European standards.. thus it is more reasonable to believe that before the Phoenicians, the amount was significantly less.

[Tooting Carmen]

Both about the same.

[Sikeliot]

Both about the same.

How much for each?

If we believe most of the "North Euro" in Sicily is Norman, then they'd have had Cypriot-like levels of the component prior to the Norman settlement.

[Tooting Carmen]

How much for each?

If we believe most of the "North Euro" in Sicily is Norman, then they'd have had Cypriot-like levels of the component prior to the Norman settlement.

10-15% maybe?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Nobody knows for sure what genetics were for phoenicians, so far as I know.

[Sikeliot]

Nobody knows for sure what genetics were for phoenicians, so far as I know.

Probably close to Cypriots.

I suspect that up until the Normans, all of the populations that had taken over Sicily were more or less genetically close, which is why it's hard to quantify their influence.

[Tooting Carmen]

Probably close to Cypriots.

I suspect that up until the Normans, all of the populations that had taken over Sicily were more or less genetically close, which is why it's hard to quantify their influence.

Quite

[Sikeliot]

Other opinions?

I think one way to figure out the extent of Norman influence is testing someone from an area where Normans were very few, and then testing someone from Palermo where they were numerous. The difference seems to be 5% or so of North Euro.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Phoenicians they had more contact with Sicily than Normans.

Most North-European in Sicilians is probably Indo-European.

[Sikeliot]

Most North-European in Sicilians is probably Indo-European.

I think that the North Euro in Sicilians in general is, but I think areas with Norman influence do have a couple extra percentages of these components.

Most Norman would come in under Dodecad's "East Euro" and "West Euro" in Sicilians, and from Dodecad K=12, these are the results of someone from Messina (little/no Norman influence) versus Palermo (noticeable Norman influence).


Messina (isolated area, little change since ancient times)
East Euro: 3.2
West Euro: 8.7
Mediterranean: 49.6
West Asian: 25.7
SW Asian: 7.8
NW African: 2
East African: 1.5


Palermo (heavier Norman and MENA influences, demographic changes since ancient times):
East Euro: 3.3
West Euro: 13.2
Mediterranean: 46.1
West Asian: 24.4
SW Asian: 8.4
NW African: 3.9


The second person has around 5% more "Western European" than does the first, which might be the Norman influence. They also have more NW African and SW Asian which makes sense due to higher Phoenician and Moorish settlements in that area, but the rest is more or less the same.

The first person on the other hand comes from an area that has likely remained highly unchanged since ancient times, so the difference between the two reflects any demographic changes that happened since ancient times.