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Thread: Finnic peoples.

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    Indo, you're-a-peein! The Khagan's Avatar
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    Default Finnic peoples.

    Finno-Ugric people are original inhabitants of the European and Eurasian north that belong to a separate "Uralic Family" linguistic group. The Finno-Ugric substratum is present over a wide area within and outside Russia, from Norway to the Urals and down to the Black Sea. During the last glaciation, these people roamed east and west along the ice melt, from England to the Urals and beyond. Yes, the British too have a distant Finno-Ugric past, underlying several layers of immigrants to the Isles.



    Is there such a thing as a "Finnish Race?" Firstly there has to be a valid concept of race in general. But in fact the term "race" is merely a construct and races do not exist in reality, except in someone's imagination. Of course all nationalities have their distinguishing characteristics, but these cannot be construed as constituting a particular race as such. There is no actual race of Finns, Russians, or even Englishmen although you can usually tell one from the other by certain features which are defined by the climate and environment in general where various people have lived for a long time. Besides, the term is not useful in most cases because everyone living today is of more or less mixed genetic content. If we take each nationality as a circle, then all the circles are overlapping, but they are not concentric. We have tendencies toward certain behavior, related to the type of environment we have been exposed to for long periods. Russians are not the same as Finns, but they have more in common with Englishmen. Mongolians are not the same as Finns, but they have more in common with Tibetans, and so on. We can put to bed the idea that the Finns wandered in from Mongolia; Finnish genetics point straight to Europe. Finns were the original Europeans, and their range was from the Atlantic to the Urals.

    Finns have been put into the Mongolian race by some historians. Of course this is absurd, since the ancestors of Finns have lived in the north, and "Finland" (not the present political boundary but an area reaching at least one thousand kilometers east) for millennia. This was started by someone who believed that Finns are not indigenous, so they had to come from somewhere, and to these sources, Mongolia was "east" and Finns must have come from that direction. Who says Finns are not indigenous? Finno-Ugric people were the original inhabitants of central Europe. Recently some ultra-nationalistic ethnic Russians ("Slavs") want to propagate this theory so perhaps it can make the Finnish tribes appear to settle on their land as squatters, and therefore they have the right to toss them off as they wish. Already in 2005, the president has declared many of the cities captured in 1944, as "old Russian" cities, though 99% of the population was ethnic Finn/Karelian.

    In fact most Europeans are indigenous going back further than the last ice age. That might surprise some, but it really makes sense. How can Saami of Finland be indigenous people of Europe, but everyone else are immigrants? We know this much: part of the Finno-Ugric substratum lived in the north and part possibly came from elsewhere, perhaps even Sumeria, not Mongolia. The writer has compared Finnish and Sumerian, and indeed there does appear to be an interesting correlation. Zecharia Sitchin, who is a scholar of ancient Sumeria, states that there is a solid linguistic connection. He states a lot of other things too, which give a lot of food for imagination regarding the ancient world and how we got here.

    As the ice retreated about 10,000 years ago, stone-age men, perhaps early Finns, occupied the rich new lands between Norway and the Urals. They were followed by other wanderers in the North, many of which were Germanic. According to Matti Klinge, (University of Helsinki), the dominant "genetic element" in Finland today is Germanic. Perhaps Germanic people had also followed game northward since the dawn of history and were accepted there amongst the Finns. When the waves of disease swept over Europe, it is possible that the germanic genetic traits (ie. the ones carrying specific immune factors, such as blood type A), survived because the immune factors were already there and did not have to be produced by the Human Immune Response. In this way, beneficial traits were gradually imported along with technology to the North from Europe.

    The eastern Finnic nations mixed with wanderers from the south and east and therefore they differ genetically from the western Finns. This genetic variability was beneficial to the eastern Finns as well. Biological diversity is what helps species to survive, and this applied to the Finns as well. Naturally, in different geographical areas gene pools differ due to "genetic drift," which is a very well understood phenomenon. The Volga Finnic people are referred to as Finns here even though they differ significantly in many ways, especially in the language which is mostly conversationally unintelligible to Baltic Finns. http://uralicac.dot5hosting.com/fgpeople.htm

    Germanic peoples have occupied the same space as the European Finnic peoples for a significant amount of time, as such theories arose that the Germanic languages are actually a creole of Indo-European and another language, one of the leading ones being Finnic. It's estimated that roughly 1/3 of the Germanic lexicon comes from non-Indo-European sources. Kalevi Wiik, a phonologist, has put forward a controversial hypothesis that the pre-Germanic substrate was of a non-Indo-European Finnic origin. Wiik claimed that there are similarities between mistakes in English pronunciation typical of Finnish speakers and the historical sound changes from Proto-Indo-European to proto-Germanic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Ind...anic_languages
    Last edited by The Khagan; 01-02-2010 at 07:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arngrim View Post
    Finno-Ugric people are original inhabitants of the European and Eurasian north that belong to a separate "Uralic Family" linguistic group.
    Genetically speaking? Yes. Linguistically, they are most likely Asiatic.

    The Finno-Ugric substratum is present over a wide area within and outside Russia, from Norway to the Urals and down to the Black Sea. During the last glaciation, these people roamed east and west along the ice melt, from England to the Urals and beyond. Yes, the British too have a distant Finno-Ugric past, underlying several layers of immigrants to the Isles.
    This British Finno-Ugric past is very doubtful. I have never read about Uralic speakers further West than Vistula in any anthro/archeo/historical source since the end of XIX century.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arngrim View Post
    Is there such a thing as a "Finnish Race?" Firstly there has to be a valid concept of race in general. But in fact the term "race" is merely a construct and races do not exist in reality, except in someone's imagination.
    So races are imaginary, right? Colours also exist exclusively in imagination?

    Of course all nationalities have their distinguishing characteristics, but these cannot be construed as constituting a particular race as such. There is no actual race of Finns, Russians, or even Englishmen although you can usually tell one from the other by certain features which are defined by the climate and environment in general where various people have lived for a long time.
    This is simply self-contradictory.

    Besides, the term is not useful in most cases because everyone living today is of more or less mixed genetic content.
    This does not make much sense.

    If we take each nationality as a circle, then all the circles are overlapping, but they are not concentric. We have tendencies toward certain behavior, related to the type of environment we have been exposed to for long periods. Russians are not the same as Finns, but they have more in common with Englishmen. Mongolians are not the same as Finns, but they have more in common with Tibetans, and so on. We can put to bed the idea that the Finns wandered in from Mongolia; Finnish genetics point straight to Europe. Finns were the original Europeans, and their range was from the Atlantic to the Urals.
    ...all of which does not refute the modern population concept of race.


    Finns have been put into the Mongolian race by some historians. Of course this is absurd, since the ancestors of Finns have lived in the north, and "Finland" (not the present political boundary but an area reaching at least one thousand kilometers east) for millennia. This was started by someone who believed that Finns are not indigenous, so they had to come from somewhere, and to these sources, Mongolia was "east" and Finns must have come from that direction. Who says Finns are not indigenous?
    Baltic Finns are exceptional among the Uralic branch and are by no means "typical"... however they exhibit higher frequency of Asiatic markers, particularly Y-DNA, which clearly marks the migrations from the East which some of their ancestors, bearing their Uralic language, had to undertake.

    Finno-Ugric people were the original inhabitants of central Europe. Recently some ultra-nationalistic ethnic Russians ("Slavs") want to propagate this theory so perhaps it can make the Finnish tribes appear to settle on their land as squatters, and therefore they have the right to toss them off as they wish. Already in 2005, the president has declared many of the cities captured in 1944, as "old Russian" cities, though 99% of the population was ethnic Finn/Karelian.
    We already had this discussion here:

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...ght=Karin+Mark

    I listed the sources including some genetic studies. Noone denies that Hungarians and Baltic Finns are by vast majority predominantly European. However they do hava a significantly higher non-European, Asiatic, marker frequency as well. This they share with members of the Altaic family.

    Saying that Finno-Ugric people descend mostly from "original" Europeans is true. Particularly for Hungarians and Baltic Finns, not Khanties, Mansies or Permyaks. However, there is certain Asiatic input which cannot be simply ignored.
    Last edited by Jarl; 01-02-2010 at 07:11 PM.

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    Technically, colors do only exist in imagination, "colors" aren't tangible things, seeing as it is just different light frequencies being absorbed by cone cells in our eyes.

    And to think of the Uralic language group in the same way as the dispersal of the Indo European language group is silly. There isn't one definitive Urheimat for the Uralic language family, but rather a very broad and spread out one consisting of many tribes interconnected through trade and a similar way of life. And technically speaking, isn't Indo European asiatic as well?

    Edit: also, correct me if I'm wrong, but West of the Vistula? How about the Sami in Norway? I don't know how much water the British Isle theory holds, but it's not exactly a hard thing to believe seeing as how far flung the Finnic languages are spread out.

    What is said is not self contradictory at all, people are more divided along cultural and linguistic lines, which is what makes Finns and other members of the Uralic family exceptional in this case. The predominately caucasoid Sami share a way of life and language more similar to the mongoloid Uralic peoples of Northern Asia yet they are racially different rather than the more sedentary less agrarian caucasoid peoples of the south. This does not mean that the Sami received their culture and language forcibly by mongols, seeing as the culture is probably just as old as the mongoloid phenotype.
    Last edited by The Khagan; 01-02-2010 at 07:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arngrim View Post
    Technically, colors do only exist in imagination, "colors" aren't tangible things, seeing as it is just different light frequencies being absorbed by cone cells in our eyes.
    Technically everything exists in imagination.

    And to think of the Uralic language group in the same way as the dispersal of the Indo European language group is silly. There isn't one definitive Urheimat for the Uralic language family, but rather a very broad and spread out one consisting of many tribes interconnected through trade and a similar way of life. And technically speaking, isn't Indo European asiatic as well?

    Edit: also, correct me if I'm wrong, but West of the Vistula? How about the Sami in Norway? I don't know how much water the British Isle theory holds, but it's not exactly a hard thing to believe seeing as how far flung the Finnic languages are spread out.
    I am talking about the continent. In Paleolithic Britain was joined to mainland Europe via a land bridge. So if someone assumes Uralics lived in Britain he has to assume they lived in most of Northern Europe. And there is no evidence for both these statements. In fact Uralic language family was most likely a more recent influx of N haplogroup bearing peoples, which in Paleolithic ihabited Siberia. And this is what I mean. R1a and R1b might also be West Asian or Eurasian. This is disputable to some extent and theories vary. Yet they were most likely present in Europe long before Uralic N, which evolved in East Asia...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarl View Post
    Technically everything exists in imagination.
    Haha then why even make that argument if you would just refute your own with this? Makes no logical sense man.


    I am talking about the continent. In Paleolithic Britain was joined to mainland Europe via a land bridge. So if someone assumes Uralics lived in Britain he has to assume they lived in most of Northern Europe. And there is no evidence for both these statements. In fact Uralic language family was most likely a more recent influx of N haplogroup bearing peoples, which in Paleolithic ihabited Siberia. And this is what I mean. R1a and R1b might also be West Asian or Eurasian. This is disputable to some extent and theories vary. Yet they were most likely present in Europe long before Uralic N, which evolved in East Asia...
    Sami also share genetic haplogroups with Berbers of North Africa, does that make them the same? No, the movement of N can be attributed to the same population movements that have been stated as the natural way of life for early Finnic peoples. Basically, what I'm saying is that Finnic and other Uralic people tend to transcend racial lines, and to look at them in a vacuum is absurd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arngrim View Post
    Haha then why even make that argument if you would just refute your own with this? Makes no logical sense man.
    No. By "imagination" I meant mind. Colours exist in our mind but we do not invent them. It makes no logical sense to assume that what we can sense is not real. And the differences between populations/races are real and objective - in that they can be sensed and measured.

    Sami also share genetic haplogroups with Berbers of North Africa, does that make them the same? No, the movement of N can be attributed to the same population movements that have been stated as the natural way of life for early Finnic peoples.
    Look. I am not going into this discussion. I will only repeat what I said. Uralic language family is an Asiatic, Siberian family according to the current scientific consensus. And all Uralic-speaking populations have clearly higher frequency of Asiatic markers than all other European populations. Numerous sources have been posted in the discussion which I gave you the link to. There is no linguistic nor genetic evidence for European origin of the original proto-Uralic speakers. In terms of ancestry and Y-DNA phylogeny, most Europeans are closer to Amerindians than to Uralics, which in turn by vast majority happen to be much closer to Chinese and East Asians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arngrim View Post
    The predominately caucasoid Sami share a way of life and language more similar to the mongoloid Uralic peoples of Northern Asia yet they are racially different rather than the more sedentary less agrarian caucasoid peoples of the south.
    ...But....I thought...

    But in fact the term "race" is merely a construct and races do not exist in reality, except in someone's imagination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    ...But....I thought...
    Going by a racialist standard, they are racially different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    ...But....I thought...
    Haha! So did I! Best proof that anti-realism is a purely abstract myth that has no relevance to human behaviour and every-day reasoning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arngrim View Post
    Going by a racialist standard, they are racially different.
    Why racialist?

    I don't believe in strictly separated human races (as in animal breeds). Simply because it is not possible to define a goodb order between them, it is to transitional. Therefore I prefer here the usage of terms like 'population'. It is more general but can be stretched and narrowed to whatever purpose it may be needed.

    However I do believe that there exists racial difference between human populations and between individuals. Especially those that have a large distance between them in time, thus in bloodlines (race in origin means bloodline/stock).

    E.g. between an Icelander and a Maori there exists a larger racial difference then between a Frisian-Hollandic cow and a Holstein-Frisian cow. The last two are seen as true, by age and geography separated, animal breeds (divergence time ca 200ya, aka 50 generations). The Iclanders and Maori's are separated by much more generations.

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