"Here Is What Started WW-2"- Youtube vid.

[The Lawspeaker]

"A French set up"? Sorry but I don't understand what you mean. Besides, don't be naive. The war should have broken out in 1908, during the Bosnian ultimatum crisis. Bulow and Bethman-Hollweg gave carte-blanche to the Aerenthal and Austrian government in their agressive, expantionist politic over the Balkans. This was bound to spark off a conflict with Russia. Germany supported anti-Russian uprisings in Bulgaria, anti-Russian royalty in Romania, rove Russians bonds off the Berlin stock-market and in the end failed to renew the treaty of the Three Emperors. By 1890s Russia has been totally alienated and thrown into French arms... by purposeful agressive German policy.

They were doing exactly the same as the Russians were doing in Asia (and previously in Central Europe, including Poland) and the Western Allies in Africa. Your point being?

German war plans have been taking into account a total war only. That was the essence of von Schlieffen's plan. A total European war, on two fronts. Crush France first - NO MATTER IF she sides with Russia or not, and the crush Russia.

Of course. The Germans had met the French before in 1870 and they knew what they were up against. When it came to Belgium they really messed up- but they seem to have counted on the wishful thinking that Belgium (and the Netherlands through Limburg) would let them pass.
The French btw have been stealing Flemish (Netherlandic) and German lands for centuries as Flanders once reached as far as the river Somme (and that area was medieval Flemish-speaking) and the Alsace and Lorraine were once German-speaking and belonging to the Holy Roman Empire.

The Germans simply knew what they were up against and decided to act quickly.

By 1914, Germany was racing against time. The French were modernising Russian railways and heave industry, while they were just about to introduce a new reform in consription that would increase the size of French regiments and army. Germany badly needed a spark that would enable them to pursue their imperial policy. And indeed! It was easy. Giving carte blanche to the Austrians in their expansion in Bosnia and Serbia provoked a conflict with Russia. Germany could have thwarted it, yet she chose to use it a pre-text for her total war.

It was Serbia that pulled the trigger. Actually people all over Europe were disgusted over what was then considered to be a terrorist activity. Serbia's reputation by then was just as piss poor as Iran's is today. It's only real friend was Russia.

The French had been investing in Russia's railways and industry in order to make a quick franc and also surround Germany. The French hawks wanted the Alsace and Lorraine back under their control.
And of course the Germans gave Austria-Hungary a blank check to deal with Serbia. Serbia had after all assassinated the heir to the Austrian-Hungarian throne.
It gave the Germans the chance to make sure that the French would not invade them-- or so they thought..

Thats not the point. The point is. The Allies had troops to enforce reparations. They withdrew the troops and consequently could not control reparations payments. The whole point of the treaty had been subdued in the bud.

Which is in essence the same logic as the Mafia uses. "Innocent" little Belgium also had already received some German-speaking areas from the Allies (and controls those to this very day). And it was the Allies that started the war- not the Germans (or even Austria-Hungary for that matter).

Germany was allowed to remilitarise against the treaty. Franco-Belgian attempt to secure some payments have been warranted by the treaty. After all Germans waged war into Belgium and France and had devastating the countries for 4 years.

Remilitarise what ? 100.000 men.. ? The German Army only became rebuild in full after 1933. In 1936 they reoccupied the Rhineland.

Indeed. They "took out" Wends, Sorbs, Pomeranians, Mazurians, most Silesians and many Kashubians and Poles. Don't you forgest that most of Poland was occupied by fairly liberal Habsburgs and Russians. Germanisation aside, only the Germans colonised Polish soils. Flooded ethnically Polish soil with 1000s of German imigrants and expropriated Poles en masse.

Most areas were never Polish to begin with. Silezia was. Pommerania sure as hell wasn't and hasn't been since at least the Early Middle Ages.
Yes we took out a lot of Saxons as well- or Frisians. And they are still there.. If I remember correctly Silezian is only now dying out and so is Kashubian. Most of those languages and ethnicities are now in the verge of extinction in the modern Polish nation state.
Sure. There was colonization but the Poles too had taken territories in the Middle Ages that belonged to ethnic Germans (take the Danzig area for instance.. your own area (if I remember correctly you were living along the coast). You're living on stolen land).

Atrocities during 20s and 30? What atrocities???

Ethnic Germans were expelled from Poland as early as 1919 after the creation of the new independent Poland- the majority of those were kicked out from the area that was later known as the Polish Corridor (your own area). That was nothing short of genocide.
But of course their rights to self-determination didn't matter...

And they were. Luckily they got beaten by the Allies and the Red Army. Poles, Slavs, and even some Balts were to be rooted out and expelled. First into General Government, and then whatsoever. Those who would stay were to become germanised.

Hitler was no saint. But Hitler was created by the cruel victors of WW1. Yes that's right.. it were France, Britain, Italy, the USA, Poland and Czechoslovakia (or perhaps better put.. the international bankers that made an awful lot of money killing their own countrymen and their neighbors) that created Hitler (or Stalin, Lenin or Mussolini for that matter).

No they had sought the protection of the Polish King but later on became absorbed into the Polish Kingdom. They even had their own laws and customs.

Perhaps that's why it was proposed in 1939 to let the Corridor remain Polish while establishing transportation links with East Prussia and letting the Poles use the port of Danzig. Danzig itself would have become part of Germany.

That proposal came from.. the Germans.

[Jarl]

And they were. Luckily they got beaten by the Allies and the Red Army. Poles, Slavs, and even some Balts were to be rooted out and expelled. First into General Government, and then whatsoever. Those who would stay were to become germanised.

And 100s of 100s Poles have been expropriated and expelled from home by the Germans during WW II, millions have been sent to labour and concentrations camps. And 2 mln 500 000 Poles died or were murdered in WW II. Together with Jewish citizens, Poland suffered highest losses. Don't you forget about that when talking about victims and opressors.

[The Lawspeaker]

And 100s of 100s Poles have been expropriated and expelled from home by the Germans during WW II, millions have been sent to labour and concentrations camps. And 2 mln 500 000 Poles died or were murdered in WW II. Together with Jewish citizens, Poland suffered highest losses. Don't you forget about that when talking about victims and opressors.

Will ever be known how many Germans died during the Interbellum ? Or in WW1 ?
Of course- that doesn't matter..
And if you want to blame the Germans for one particular catastrophy in Warsaw 1944.. look East.
To your valiant allies that were already standing with their tanks on the banks of the Vistula in full view of Warsaw.

When it comes to casualties of WW2 people should perhaps try to make separate categories: natural deaths and disease, killed by the Germans, killed by the Allies, Jews. (and in our case also killed by the Japanese).
It suddenly sheds a whole new light on the number of casualties.

[Svanhild]

I'm sorry to say that I can now understand why my German compatriots on the board have issues with you, Jarl. Your posts in this thread are dripping with Anti German attitudes. How can you expect serious concern for Polish needs if you show blantant spitefulness with reference to the treatment of my country?

Yet again you represent a typical German nationalist POV. First of all, Versailles was paper treaty which never really had been implemented. It has been torpedoed right from the start by the English an the US. Where was the treaty? On paper. Most of its points were broken. Had the treaty been implemented in the form it was written down, WW II would have never happened.

That travesty of a peace treaty was the main reason for the rise of the 3rd Reich and the proto-reason for World War 2. The onesided allocation of all shame on Germany, the excruciating loss of territory, the tremendous financial burden and the arrogant demeanor of the winning parties were insufferable. British and US politicians knew it but couldn't do much about it.

And again you're telling some untruths. Germany is paying debts of the treaty of Versailles right now, more than 90 years after the war.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4962806,00.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...-years-on.html

With some luck the subjugation ends this October. Are you satisfied now? Germany pays and pays and pays: We pay for World War 1, we pay for World War 2, we pay for the Holocaust, we pay for the NATO, we pay for the European Union, we pay for development assistance and we pay to Poland. We are the cash cow of Europe and in gratitude for our payments we have to listen to fucked up drivel like yours. Thanks for nothing, man from Poland, and I hope you like it on our lost territory in our lost infrastructure. Hard to keep my countenance at this point.

[Jarl]

They were doing exactly the same as the Russians were doing in Asia (and previously in Central Europe, including Poland) and the Western Allies in Africa. Your point being?

I do not know what's your point to begin with. For decades Germany had been keeping the balacne in the Balkans. Then suddenly it started supporting Austria despite all the consequences and went head on against Russia, using terror, issuing one ultimatum in 1908 and another one in 1914. Russia had dealt with Bosnian annexations, but annexation of Serbia would mean elimination of Russian influences over the Balkans, a disaster which Russia could never afford to happen. Bismarck understood it well and prevented it from hapenning. Bethman-Hollweg understood it perfectly too, but purposefuly allowed the Austrians to do whatever they pleased, so Germany could gain the pretext to declare war on France and Russia and go for a world war.

Of course. The Germans had met the French before in 1870 and they knew what they were up against. When it came to Belgium they really messed up- but they seem to have counted on the wishful thinking that Belgium (and the Netherlands through Limburg) would let them pass.
The French btw have been stealing Flemish (Netherlandic) and German lands for centuries as Flanders once reached as far as the river Somme (and that area was medieval Flemish-speaking) and the Alsace and Lorraine were once German-speaking and belonging to the Holy Roman Empire.

The Germans simply knew what they were up against and decided to act quickly.

But what are you talking about? This does not change the fact that Germany did not have to give carte-blanche to Austria, she did not have to accept Bosnian annexation in 1908, and war against Serbia in 1914. It does not change the fact Germany used Serbian crisis as her excuse to wage total war on... Russia and France.

It was Serbia that pulled the trigger. Actually people all over Europe were disgusted over what was then considered to be a terrorist activity. Serbia's reputation by then was just as piss poor as Iran's is today. It's only real friend was Russia.

The French had been investing in Russia's railways and industry in order to make a quick franc and also surround Germany. The French hawks wanted the Alsace and Lorraine back under their control.

And of course the Germans gave Austria-Hungary a blank check to deal with Serbia. Serbia had after all assassinated the heir to the Austrian-Hungarian throne.

This is nonsense. Assasination of Ferdinand was an excuse for annexation of Serbia, which the Austrians had been planning right after annexation of Bosnia in 1908. Nothing excuses Germany's decision to invade Russia, Belgium and France in response to... Serbian hostility. Only a German nationalist could pardon that crime.

t gave the Germans the chance to make sure that the French would not invade them-- or so they thought..

This is no excuse. There was no necessity to declare war on France and Russia, to invade Belgium. Germany knew that if she supported Austria all the way in the Serbian conflict it would lead to a total war, a world war. And she made her choice.

Which is in essence the same logic as the Mafia uses. "Innocent" little Belgium also had already received some German-speaking areas from the Allies (and controls those to this very day). And it was the Allies that started the war- not the Germans (or even Austria-Hungary for that matter).

Again. Incomprehensible German nationalist POV. Please translate.

Remilitarise what ? 100.000 men.. ? The German Army only became rebuild in full after 1933. In 1936 they reoccupied the Rhineland.

...so??? The treaty was on paper - like I said

Most areas were never Polish to begin with. Silezia was. Pommerania sure as hell wasn't and hasn't been since at least the Early Middle Ages.
Yes we took out a lot of Saxons as well- or Frisians. And they are still there.. If I remember correctly Silezian is only now dying out and so is Kashubian. Most of those languages and ethnicities are now in the verge of extinction in the modern Polish nation state.

So are Kurpie, Łowiczanie, Lesniacy and dozens of other dialects and local groups. Kashubians and Silesians were Poles. Vast majority of Silesians and Kashubians have always considered themselves as Polish.

Sure. There was colonization but the Poles too had taken territories in the Middle Ages that belonged to ethnic Germans (take the Danzig area for instance.. your own area (if I remember correctly you were living along the coast). You're living on stolen land).

I don't know what you're talking about. Danzig, Culmerland, and all other lands belonged to the Polish state. Germans were invited in as burgher colonists by the Polish monarchs. Eastern Pomerania has never been "ethnically German". You are totally mistaken.

Ethnic Germans were expelled from Poland as early as 1919 after the creation of the new independent Poland- the majority of those were kicked out from the area that was later known as the Polish Corridor (your own area). That was nothing short of genocide. But of course their rights to self-determination didn't matter...

This is an insult. A lie. A ridiculous bullshit, which I am not even going to comment.

Hitler was no saint.

But Hitler was created by the cruel victors of WW1. Yes that's right..

No. That is not right. That is another German nationalist, apologetic bullshit.

...it were France, Britain, Italy, the USA, Poland and Czechoslovakia (or perhaps better put.. the international bankers that made an awful lot of money killing their own countrymen and their neighbors) that created Hitler (or Stalin, Lenin or Mussolini for that matter).

Yes. Everyone created Hitler. Hitler symbolises the unjustice inflicted upon poor Germans...

That becomes interesting... please go on...

No they had sought the protection of the Polish King but later on became absorbed into the Polish Kingdom. They even had their own laws and customs.

No. They asked explicitly to be incorporated into the Crown of Poland. And so they were in 1466.

Perhaps that's why it was proposed in 1939 to let the Corridor remain Polish while establishing transportation links with East Prussia and letting the Poles use the port of Danzig. Danzig itself would have become part of Germany.

That proposal came from.. the Germans.

The war did not break out over the the Prussian motorway and I am really not going to waste my time upon discussing reasons behind WW II with someone who believes poor Germany waged war on Benelux, France, England, Denmark, Norway, Russia, Balkans, Greece and the USA because of... the Danzig corridor. This is elementary.

[Jarl]

I'm sorry to say that I can now understand why my German compatriots on the board have issues with you, Jarl. Your posts in this thread are dripping with Anti German attitudes. How can you expect serious concern for Polish needs if you show blantant spitefulness with reference to the treatment of my country?

No my dear Svanhild. Either we base the discussion upon stark factual truth or upon apologetic nonsense. No world war broke out over bullshit aristocrat's assassination or a motorway. This is a gross nonsense that no historian has ever seriously considered. And I am not going to let Asega slander the Poles, compare them to Hitler, and make opressors out of them insinuating some bullshit German expulsions "short of genocide" that purportedly happened in 1920s or 30s in Poland, but noone has ever heard about. Like I said - either facts or lies. There is no way in-between.

1. Contrary to what Asega's claimed, prior to WW II - in the 20s an 30s, Poland did not exterminate or expell Germans.

2. Poland has never established concentration/death camps for German civilians. Imprisoned or murdered German civilians without trial.

3. Expulsions of German civilians after WW II were a part of Politburo's policy and Polish communists were pawns taking orderds from Moscow. They not only expelled the Germans, but they also exterminated thousands of Polish patriots, torturing them in NKVD prisons and finishing them off with a bullet to the back of the head. They purged upper classes, whole families, sending hundres of thousands of Poles to Siberia.


This is the stark truth. And I am sick of Asega's vile bullshit. If he wants to make opressors out of Poles, then sure I will not rest the case, and I will keep asking him for historical evidence.

[Svanhild]

Either we base the discussion upon stark factual truth or upon apologetic nonsense. Like I said - either facts or lies. There is no way in-between.

The cruelty of the treaty of Versailles is a factual truth, either you accept it or the discussion ends here. Neither Poles nor Germans were winged angels. You're fast in pointing fingers on the other side but you repress own flaws stubbornly. Thereby a discussion on a level playing field is impossible, thus I don't want to waste energy to a lost cause here.

[Jarl]

The cruelty of the treaty of Versailles is a factual truth, either you accept it or the discussion ends here. Neither Poles nor Germans were winged angels. You're fast in pointing fingers on the other side but you repress own flaws stubbornly. Thereby a discussion a on a level playing field is impossible, thus I don't want to waste energy to a lost cause here.

There was a reason behind everything. There was a reason behind cruelty of Versailles, and there was a reason for why it had never been fully in force. There was a reason for Hitler's popularity, and for expulsions of the Germans. I am not making winged angles out of the Poles. People are people. Alike in every society. You get the bad ones and the good ones. As for pointing the fingers, I am no relativist. I have studied history of WW I quite thoroughly. If someone wants to sell me a theory that WWI and II broke out because of archduke's assassination, and a motorway, then he/she should not be surprised if others (or me for that matter) question his simplistic, naive assumption. And its no "finger pointing" but just a debate. Likewise, if someone suggests expulsions of Germans that were "short of genocide" happened in 20s in Poland, it cannot pass unnoticed. It is too serious an allegation to be overlooked.