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[Proto-Shaman]

Artek, what's your opinion hungarian R1a subclades? Possible Ugric/central-asian origin or excluded? What is the statistical probability? Sorry if too difficult issues!

Hungarian= Hungarian+Szekler+Csango

http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAP...on-HG-R1a1.pdf

R1a1a1b1a1 (M458+): the West Slavic subgroup of R1a-M417, can be considered Polish or Slovak in the Carpathian Basin. Has two large subgroups, L260 and L1029, both are present in Hungary. It has appeared around 5000-6000 BC in Eastern Europe.

R1a1a1b1a2 (Z280+): the North-East European subclade of R1a-M417, approximately 10-11 thousand years old. It is common from the Baltic to the Urals as well as the Carpathian Basin. The majority of the Steppe Magyars likely belonged to this group, as the“Carpathian B type” typically appears in Russia and the Carpathian Basin. The “Carpathian D type” is typical for Slovenes and Hungarians.

R1a1a1b2 (Z93+): the Asian subgroup of R1a-M417, approximately 10-14 thousand years old. It is common among Altaian Turks, Kyrghyz, Ashkenazi Jews, Indians and Eastern Iranians. In the Carpathian basin, it can be considered as Turkic admixture.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ection=results

Concerning possible Ugric and Scytho-Sarmatian admixures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yurmat#Ethnic_History

[Artek]

Sorry, but this is a basically pre Indo-European marker, the Corder Ware culture is minimum three, but presumably four or five times younger than the Z280:

"The TMRCA of all R1a1-Z280 haplotypes yielded 10,283 +/- 2,574 years (95% CI, 7,709–12,857 years)"

source: Horolma Pamjav, Tibor Fehér Endre Németh and Zsolt Pádár: Brief Communication: New Y-Chromosome Binary Markers Improve Phylogenetic Resolution Within Haplogroup R1a1 - American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 2012

They used a wrong and obsolete method of Zhivotovsky, now the calibrated mutation rate after Francalacci's thesis is about ~0.7x10^-9 mutation/year and it makes much sense given even scarce aDNA data we have.

[Artek]

FTDNA has implemented new haplotree
R1a section looks like that - nothing special but that's a progress anyway:

[blogen]

They used a wrong and obsolete method of Zhivotovsky, now the calibrated mutation rate after Francalacci's thesis is about ~0.7x10^-9 mutation/year and it makes much sense given even scarce aDNA data we have.

Francalacci's paper is very new.

[Artek]

NEW SNPs ready to order In FTDNA!!!

Group M458
Y2905 – subclade of L260 (probably A1 cluster)
YP263 – subclade of L1029, (parent of FG1234)
FG1234 – subclade of YP263

Group Z280*
S24902 – Western subclade of Z280, brother clade of CTS1211 and Z92 (5.B + 5.C cathegories)

Group Z280/CTS1211*
YP340 – subclade of CTS1211, parent of P278.2 (Old Carpathian / 6.A1A+6.A1B cathegory)

Group Z280/CTS3402/YP237
YP295 – subclade of YP234, (B2F + B2H + ? cathegory)
YP335 – subclade of YP295, (B2F cathegory)

Group Z280/CTS3402/Y33/CTS8816
Y2902 – subclade of Y1392, parent of Y2910 (B1 Cathegory / Volga-Carpathian)
Y2910 – parent of YP310 (B1A1 cathegory / Volga-Carpathian)
YP310 – subclade of Y2910 (B1A1 subclade / Volga-Carpathian)
YP331 – subclade of CTS8816 (B2I cathegory / I Type)

Group Z280/Z92
Y1401 – subclade of Z92, equivalent to YP270 (East Baltic / 7.A cathegory)

Group Z93/Z2124/Z2123
Y2632 - subclade of Z2123 (Brother clade of Y47, Y934 and Y937)

[Fakirbakir]

Those few Z93 cases can be Ugric (or Scytho-Sarmatian, so inconclusive - we need aDNA). Z280 and M458 in Rroma is obviously from outside.
I've additionally helped myself with Semargl's database - out of nearly 300 samples (among which about 70 are R1a) only one belongs to Z93-L342 clade. Of course there are still undertested sub-regions in Hungary but overall paternal Hunnic ancestry seems to be stikingly low.

It is more complicated than you assume.

You can not exclude subclades of R1a-z280 because we simply do not have data enough to determine the "proto-Hungarian genetic makeup". We need more samples (recent and ancient) from Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Luckily, Balazs Gusztav Mende (archaeogenetics expert of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences) has already started to collect samples from Eastern European graves.

It seems that Corded Ware and/or Yamna cultures played an important role in the early Hungarian ethnogenesis (IMO). Unfortunately, we do not know the exact location of the Hungarian Urheimat (homeland) . The three possibilities are 1, western side of the Ural Mountains (region of Samara and Perm) 2, eastern side of the Ural mountains (medieval Yugra) 3, The Eurasian steppe southward from Ural (Aral, Caspian Sea, Baikal). We also know that proto-Magyars were mostly Andronoid folks. If you know Hungarian researches you will see that the vast majority of the 10th century samples were composed of "European" haplogroups (the samples of the "elite bones" too).

http://kepfeltoltes.hu/view/140329/r...toltes.hu_.jpg

(1, 10th century--all samples together-- 2, samples of cemetery of Harta 3, the samples of the richer graves ---"presumably conqueror warriors"--- 4, poorer graves 5, present day Hungarian samples 6, present day Szekler samples.)

Also, there is a "new" (actually one hundred years old) theory based on recent genetic researches that the subjugated pre-conquest population in the Carpathian Basin was the "real" Hungarians.

http://ahea.net/e-journal/volume-6-2...oad=240&ajax=1

[Artek]

It is more complicated than you assume.

You can not exclude subclades of R1a-z280 because we simply do not have data enough to determine the "proto-Hungarian genetic makeup". We need more samples (recent and ancient) from Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Luckily, Balazs Gusztav Mende (archaeogenetics expert of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences) has already started to collect samples from Eastern European graves.

Well, it's even more complicated than a thesis. MtDNA in that resolution doesn't say much, we need sequenced mtDNA from graves and SNP-tested Y-DNA. But you're right that there were influences from nearby cultures.

New haplotree from a project.



New draft haplotree of an R1a-Z284 branch

[Artek]

Project haplotree grows:


Notice new "Western European" S224902 branch of Z280 which is paralell to CTS1211.

[xajapa]

Also from the R1a Project at FTDNA:

Attachment 47268

[xajapa]

Project haplotree grows:


Notice new "Western European" S224902 branch of Z280 which is paralell to CTS1211.

Hey Artek. Where did you get this updated chart?