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Thread: Anthropology of the Estonians

  1. #141
    Veteran Member Pure ja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll View Post
    It really corresponds to all other research I've read. According to most anthropologists, who had the West Baltic type, it's common among Balts, Belarussians, Western parts of Russia and Polish people. (And of course in Western Estonia). Baltic Finnic type really is the East Baltic type.
    I disagree with the labels.
    From the spread of West Baltic, it looks to correspond with swiderian.
    "East Baltic" looks to correspond to more Volga-finnic, Perm-finnic and more samoyed.

    I specifically disagree with the "East baltic" labeling as "baltic-finnic". "East Baltic" should be labeled as "East baltic-finnic".

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamane View Post
    Intra and inter tribal territories are marked using the same dashed line if you haven't noticed.

    Anyway, it does not show Žiemgaliai tribe living by the Baltic Sea. You must be mixing it with Žemiečiai (should be Žemaičiai) tribe. Ceclis is partially included in Žemaičiai territory. However, no seaside land is assigned to Žemaičiai.

    Even though Lammechinus titled himself "a king", I've read he ruled 1/3 of all Curonian territory. Pope's legate Balduin signed analogous treaties with Curonians from other lands.
    Even if we take the 1/3 at face value, I don't see that 1/3 of Curonia on the map.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    I disagree with the labels.
    From the spread of West Baltic, it looks to correspond with swiderian.
    It's certainly possible. Do you know if there exists any archaeological findings of swiderian culture? Have they measured any phenotypes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    "East Baltic" looks to correspond to more Volga-finnic, Perm-finnic and more samoyed.

    I specifically disagree with the "East baltic" labeling as "baltic-finnic". "East Baltic" should be labeled as "East baltic-finnic".
    East Baltic would be more "East Baltic Finnic", yes. More common among Karelians, Vepsians, Ingrians and Setos.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll View Post
    Where did you get that figure? Also, was it relatively significant compared to other parts of Sweden?
    According to land counts, oeselians formed about 1/7 of Estonian population in the 1200 AD, while their territory was just 5%.
    And fishing and seal hunting would only tip the balance more towards oeselians.

    Gotland got to its current land area quicker than Saaremaa, Gotland is also a bit larger. And it is in a warmer climate, which should enhance agriculture. It suggests that Gotland had a bit larger population than Saaremaa. Saaremaa only had the possible advantage of migratory bird flocks and seals on their favour. But even if the population density of Gotland was similar to Saaremaa, I would expect at least 10 persons per km2 by 1200 AD, that would mean 30 000 (but 2 centuries later than 1000 AD).

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll View Post
    It's certainly possible. Do you know if there exists any archaeological findings of swiderian culture? Have they measured any phenotypes?
    You mean human skulls and bones?
    I haven't heard of.
    The closest would probably be the mesolithic burials near Astijärv (Esti järv ;-), just kidding).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll View Post
    Actually, I once had to do a test where I had to listen to several Baltic-dialect. Most of them were Latvian and Lithuanian, but one was Livonian. I couldn't tell which one was the Baltic-Finnic Livonian. I guess the Baltic-Finnic languages don't sound extremely different to Baltic-languages, though there are differences.
    That was probably already a very worn out and mixed livonian that you heard.
    But you may be onto something. The pronounciation of estonian language is certainly molded by foreign languages that estonians have encountered. We were not Tavastians

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. R. View Post
    I know next to nothing about ethnogenesis of Estonians but I'm watching a documentary about crusaders right now and an historian Alaksandr Baškoŭ says there literally this:

    In fact you would not find today an Estonian who would descend from those Ests, because they all are in fact descendants of the crusaders. Thus they have a special anthropological type. When we come to Estonia we see blonde people, we see people with blue eyes and according to the anthropological parameters they have nothing left from the Ests.

    That would be sad. :icon_sad: I wish I heard from someone that it's stupid to take this statement seriously. Anyone?
    This is stupid idea as the number of crusaders or later Germans in Estonia remained at level of 2% of population in countryside and minority also in towns. In North-Estonia probably even part of high class remained local by nationality. Estonians were more influenced after big wars in about 1558-1630 after which many neighbouring people migrated into Estonia. Even then mostly by close neighbours like Finns. Society in 18th century was so Estonian-dominated that even my probably German ancestor of that time turned into Estonian although related to manor.

    According to new ideas Estonians were mostly Germanic already in 1200 BC. Some find that in Viking age North of Estonia was again under heavy influence by Germanics and part of Viking world. Probably so much independent part of Viking world that creation of Kiev Rus state could not take it.

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