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Thread: Anthropology of the Estonians

  1. #21
    Veteran Member Pure ja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    Only in modern Estonian. Historically there is nothing to suggest that Finnic people ever lived there. Curonians (Kuršiai, Kurši) after whoom that spit a and lagoon are named were Baltic people.
    They were originally finnic, later turned bilingual, later on turned baltic. Just as fennoswedes today.
    Or Ahvenanmaan swedes.

    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    Meri is a loanword from Balts:
    Lexicon of Early Indo-European Loanwords Preserved in Finnish
    You cannot possibly be suggesting that Aesti were originally Finnic people, can you?
    I can. And I will. Bilingual finns. Just like fennoswedes.


    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    It would be a bizarre assertion since Tacitus specifically said that their language resembles that of Brits - if they had been Finno-Ugric speaking, he would have said that their language resembles that of Fenni (Finns) who were also mentioned in his Germania as a different tribe.
    I can. And I will.

    You don't know what was spoken among brits back then, and what kind of brits specifically. Estonian sounds much like dutch, finnish does not sound like dutch so much. More southerly baltic-finnic dialects would have had some third accent. And I seriously doubt that any unified proto-baltic-finnic existed back then. And Tacitus probably never met any fenni, so he had no comparison.


    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    You cannot assert that this toponym is that old just based on when that body of water was part of the actual sea. Even though etymologically marios/meri originally meant "sea", in regions which don't border sea, the meaning is sometimes shifted to any large body of water, for example: Kauno marios or Elektrėnų marios.
    Not in Estonia. And an artificial weir lake name is a cheapshot.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    They were originally finnic, later turned bilingual, later on turned baltic. Just as fennoswedes today.
    Or Ahvenanmaan swedes.
    You have zero evidence to support your assertion that they were originally Finnic. Nothing. Zitch. Nada

    You are starting off with a preconceived notion that they must have been Finnic that you've drawn out of thin air and make clumsy attempts to build on that. That's not a reasonable approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    I can. And I will. Bilingual finns. Just like fennoswedes.
    There is a recorded historical evidence that they spoke Indo-European language. There is no historical evidence that they would have known any Finnic language. As far as their "supposed Finnic-ness" is concerned, the burden of proof lies on you to prove it, not on me to disprove your baseless claims.




    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    I can. And I will.
    You can't. And you failed to do so in the following paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    You don't know what was spoken among brits back then, and what kind of brits specifically.
    Marvelous. So, now you say that Brits might have been Finnic too


    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    Estonian sounds much like dutch, finnish does not sound like dutch so much. More southerly baltic-finnic dialects would have had some third accent. And Tacitus probably never met any fenni, so he had no comparison.
    Estonian sounds like Dutch?
    Both Estonian and Finnish sound similar. As a Balt I am not able to differentiate between the two when I hear them. Even if Tacitus hadn't traveled there himself, there was amber trade with Aesti going on, so he surely must have met people who communicated with them. It is only nowadays, after 600 years of German slavery that half of Estonian vocabulary in of non-Finnic origin, back in those days the proportion of loanwords would have been only a fraction of it. But even nowadays.. mistaking a Finnic language for a Germanic one - oh god, you cannot possibly imagine how ludicrous your suggestion sounds like to someone who is actually familiar with those languages.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    INot in Estonia. And an artificial weir lake name is a cheapshot.
    In Estonia too, you said it yourself that it's used for the inland bodies of water as well. You know what actually is a cheapshot? Your attempt to make it sound that only bodies of water which were formerly part of a sea are named meri because if we go back in time far enough, pretty much the whole Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania were covered by sea. That was loooooong before Finnic or Indo-European people showed up though, so claiming continuity from those times is baseless.

  3. #23
    Veteran Member Pure ja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    You have zero evidence to support your assertion that they were originally Finnic. Nothing. Zitch. Nada
    You still haven't provided any reasonable explanation for the 'Caloi' in Caloi + pede.

    My position stems from the fact that balticization of curonians and livonians is a historical fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    Marvelous. So, now you say that Brits might have been Finnic too
    No, I don't.
    That is what you read out of it.
    I was merely suggesting that it might have sounded similar, when compared to other neighbouring languages.


    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    Estonian sounds like Dutch?
    Yes, especially the coastal regions.
    Veeren veeren.

    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    Even if Tacitus hadn't traveled there himself, there was amber trade with Aesti going on, so he surely must have met people who communicated with them.
    So? Foreign languages have never been a problem for estonians.


    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    It is only nowadays, after 600 years of German slavery that half of Estonian vocabulary in of non-Finnic origin, back in those days the proportion of loanwords would have been only a fraction of it. But even nowadays.. mistaking a Finnic language for a Germanic one - oh god, you cannot possibly imagine how ludicrous your suggestion sounds like to someone who is actually familiar with those languages.
    1. You are jumping to the conclusion that a language in Briton would have to be a germanic language. It could well have been celtic or pictic or whatever.
    2. Finno-ugric languages contain IE loanwords from the earliest stages of IE development.
    3. Quite recently you supported the claim that 'mere' was a supposedly baltic loan, which in turn was supposedly a germanic loan, which in turn was probably supposedly a atlantic/mediterranean loan. Whatever it was, be it a loan or nostratic or something else, there is still the issue of 'mere' and 'rand' (and while you are at it, why not 'saar' and 'säär' and 'sõõr' as well) toponyms in Estonia many dating back more than 2000 years (based on postglacial isostatic rebound), some much more.

    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    In Estonia too, you said it yourself that it's used for the inland bodies of water as well. You know what actually is a cheapshot? Your attempt to make it sound that only bodies of water which were formerly part of a sea are named meri because if we go back in time far enough, pretty much the whole Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania were covered by sea.
    You can try the isostatic rebound angle in Lithuania as well. In fact you should, since the Curonian Lagoon has been a lake and a lagoon intermittently.

    As to your blame of a cheapshot, why don't you leave out the historically known artificial names and see in what countries or regions there is a similar phenomenon. You may get lucky in Sweden. Maybe. But if Sweden lacks such a trend, then I'd say that the germanic origin of 'mere' and 'rand' and 'saar' is not likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    That was loooooong before Finnic or Indo-European people showed up though, so claiming continuity from those times is baseless.
    I am aware of that particular school of thought - the so-called tree-based linguistic analysis.
    I think that the tree-based analysis does not suit to adequately model population dynamics and linguistic dynamics. That is why I also do not think that there ever was a one united proto-baltic-finnic. Their old approach is certainly useful to pick up bits and pieces, but one should use a network model to put the pieces together. I suspect that their approach is leaving out a lot of finnic evolution on the western side.

    As to agriculture, it is proven by pollen analysis that Estonian inhabitants started to experiment with it about 7000 years ago - about the same time when it started in the southern Baltics. Even more so, the first experiments date to the same time also in Finland.
    Read and weep:

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...gea.21428/full

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  5. #25
    Veteran Member Pure ja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamane View Post
    there were early 20th c. theories about supposed balticization to of Curonians. Howeevr, they were proposed by Finnics themselves and are now declined.
    I am still waiting for any sensible explanation for Caloi in Caloi+pede (Klaipeda).

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    You guys are total newbies and don't know shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by link View Post
    You cannot possibly be suggesting that Aesti were originally Finnic people, can you? It would be a bizarre assertion since Tacitus specifically said that their language resembles that of Brits - if they had been Finno-Ugric speaking, he would have said that their language resembles that of Fenni (Finns) who were also mentioned in his Germania as a different tribe.
    Yes, there's no way knowing if Aesti were Finnic. But it's also very likely, that Fenni as described by Tacitus, were in fact Saami-people. Tacitus is not a good source for anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    They were originally finnic, later turned bilingual, later on turned baltic. Just as fennoswedes today.
    Or Ahvenanmaan swedes.
    Ahvenanmaa Swedes and Finland Swedes are not just Finns who speak Swedish, especially Ahvenanmaa Swedes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    You don't know what was spoken among brits back then, and what kind of brits specifically. Estonian sounds much like dutch, finnish does not sound like dutch so much. More southerly baltic-finnic dialects would have had some third accent. And I seriously doubt that any unified proto-baltic-finnic existed back then. And Tacitus probably never met any fenni, so he had no comparison.
    Estonian doesn't sound like Dutch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll View Post
    Ahvenanmaa Swedes and Finland Swedes are not just Finns who speak Swedish, especially Ahvenanmaa Swedes.
    That is like saying that Finns are not just Finns. Or that balts are not just balts.
    Or for that matter, that Swedes are not just Swedes (especially those in Uppland ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll View Post
    Estonian doesn't sound like Dutch
    And you decide that based on what other third language?
    I was talking about comparative similarity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    That is like saying that Finns are not just Finns. Or that balts are not just balts.
    Or for that matter, that Swedes are not just Swedes (especially those in Uppland ).
    No it's not, I don't understand your logic. Finland-Swedes are very much partly Swedish, not just linguistically. And people from Ahvenanmaa even more so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pure ja View Post
    And you decide that based on what other third language?
    I was talking about comparative similarity.
    On comparative similarity bases, Estonian sounds more similar to Latvian, than to Dutch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll View Post
    On comparative similarity bases, Estonian sounds more similar to Latvian, than to Dutch.
    and Latvian sounds like Russian, soo.... (according to karl anyway)
    R.I.P Joan Rivers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll View Post
    On comparative similarity bases, Estonian sounds more similar to Latvian, than to Dutch.
    The issue here was what Tacitus thought or had heard of.
    I didn't bring up the language similarities in this thread.

    Do you think that Latvian is more similar to Dutch than Estonian is to Dutch?

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