Anthropology of the Estonians

[Pure ja]

I know, Coon's migration theories are completely outdated. For example, genetics shows, that Baltic Finns aren't really related to Volga Finns.

Southern baltic finns are genetically more related. Northern baltic finns are less related.

North-Estonian soils are on the Baltic Clint and thus more related to Gotland and south-eastern Sweden and Denmark. And that is also from where Estonia has got a lot of agricultural influences, also during the iron age.

South-eastern Estonia is less fertile for agriculture and their population densities have lagged the rest of Estonia.
South-western Estonia has got influences from Livonia and from further south. Whatever agricultural influences Estonia got during the iron ages, it was mostly from south and south-west and west; not so much from east. Eastern influences came about 400 AD to south-eastern Estonia, via setos.

[Peikko]

Southern baltic finns are genetically more related. Northern baltic finns are less related.

North-Estonian soils are on the Baltic Clint and thus more related to Gotland and south-eastern Sweden and Denmark. And that is also from where Estonia has got a lot of agricultural influences, also during the iron age.

South-eastern Estonia is less fertile for agriculture and their population densities have lagged the rest of Estonia.
South-western Estonia has got influences from Livonia and from further south. Whatever agricultural influences Estonia got during the iron ages, it was mostly from south and south-west and west; not so much from east. Eastern influences came about 400 AD to south-eastern Estonia, via setos.

What's also interesting is that Estonians really are more related to Balts than to Finns.

[Pure ja]

What's also interesting is that Estonians really are more related to Balts than to Finns.

That is easy to understand if one recalls that at the start of the iron age, most of the Latvian territory (and thus most of the Baltics to the south of the Bay of Finland) was still baltic-finnic. Finns are much more a genetic isolate and finns constituted the majority of baltic-finns only after the Livonian War, or possibly even only after the Great Nordic War. Before those wars, the majority of baltic-finns lived south to the Bay of Finland.

[Peikko]

That is easy to understand if one recalls that at the start of the iron age, most of the Latvian territory (and thus most of the Baltics to the south of the Bay of Finland) was still baltic-finnic. Finns are much more a genetic isolate and finns constituted the majority of baltic-finns only after the Livonian War, or possibly even only after the Great Nordic War. Before those wars, the majority of baltic-finns lived south to the Bay of Finland.

What I meant is, that the Corded Ware culture had much smaller impact on Finland, than it had to the Baltics. Probably you share some Baltic Finnic ancestry with Finns, but you share more ancestry with the Balts.

[Äike]

What I meant is, that the Corded Ware culture had much smaller impact on Finland, than it had to the Baltics. Probably you share some Baltic Finnic ancestry with Finns, but you share more ancestry with the Balts.

Estonians are genetically more proto-Finnic, also the Latvians, than the Finns are. We don't share ancestry with the Balts, we share ancestry with Finnics who now speak an Indo-European language.

The Baltic tribes have never migrated to Estonia nor lived here. The genetical influence is quite one-sided, with them assimilating the natives and not making it past the Livs.

[Peikko]

Estonians are genetically more proto-Finnic, also the Latvians, than the Finns are. We don't share ancestry with the Balts, we share ancestry with Finnics who now speak an Indo-European language.

The Baltic tribes have never migrated to Estonia nor lived here. The genetical influence is quite one-sided, with them assimilating the natives and not making it past the Livs.

No, in fact it's quite the opposite. Finns are more isolated and better preserved Baltic Finns, while Estonians have had much more Baltic and Slavic input. This is proven by the fact, that Estonia has 32% of R1a haplogroup, while Finland has only 7,5%. The other fact is, that Finland has way more of the original N1c-paternal lineages (58,5%), than Estonia (34%).


In genetic distances Estonians cluster with Balts and Slavs, while Finns are relatively far from all our neighbours. Estonians do have slight drift towards Finland, which comes from the connection with South Finns. This map has been floating around anthroforums, but some other studies would really confirm it (Venäjä=Russia,Ruotsi=Sweden,Suomi=Finland,Viro=Es tonia):


Slavic influences in Estonia also show in phenotypes, giving some Estonians (like yourself) more Eastern European vibe. Team Estonia:

Spoiler!

These have Estonian names:

[Peikko]

I wonder how Finns got all those Baltic loanwords then.

Well, loanwords don't come with genes. Mostly through Baltic trade.

[Peikko]

Baltic loanwords in Finnish span various spheres of human existence. What indicates trades could be the only way?

Some of the Baltic loanwords may go way back. Before the Corded Ware culture, the populations of the Baltic states were probably mainly Finno-Ugrics. Lithuania still has large concentration of N1c.

[Pure ja]

What I meant is, that the Corded Ware culture had much smaller impact on Finland, than it had to the Baltics. Probably you share some Baltic Finnic ancestry with Finns, but you share more ancestry with the Balts.

What I mean, is that estonians share more southern baltic-finnic ancestry with balts (and balts with estonians).

[Pure ja]

Estonians are genetically more proto-Finnic, also the Latvians, than the Finns are. We don't share ancestry with the Balts, we share ancestry with Finnics who now speak an Indo-European language.

The Baltic tribes have never migrated to Estonia nor lived here. The genetical influence is quite one-sided, with them assimilating the natives and not making it past the Livs.

That is more or less what I had in mind.
If the iron-age population centre of baltic-finnics used to be to the south of the Bay of Finland, then one can't really argue that Finnish finns are more representative of iron-age baltic-finns.

I wouldn't be so categorical to claim that baltic tribes did not reach here. As baltic tribes, they didn't reach Estonia. As individuals and families they did. But even those 'balts' who reached Estonia were a far cry from the indo-europeans who originally beared the indo-european languages. Most of the 'balts' who arrived to Estonia were actually bilingual southern baltic-finns who probably didn't like the baltization in further south anyway: curonians to Saaremaa and Muhumaa, livonians to Sakala, Atšola / Akkola / Adzele to Ugandi, etc.

I also wouldn't claim that the genetic influence between balts and southern baltic-finns were one-sided. If it were, then balts wouldn't genetically group together with estonians, but with poles and belarussians instead (or at least would be closer to them). As I understand, there has been wife-swapping (and maybe also husband-swapping) within the Baltic region (the three Baltic states) since the stone age, and that practice probably broke down during the iron age (around the start of the common era, or even sooner), due to increasing population (and -densities). It was part of the same process during which agriculture gained prevalence (although it had been practiced and experimented with since 5000 BC here) and the region disintegrated into individual counties, which soon after joined to form loose confederal alliances.