Austria-Hungary and the great war

[portusaus]

I noticed a lot of traditionalists in Europe and America praise Austria Hungary and Germany during the kaiser rule or second reich. There is cosntant mental acrobatics to pin the blame for ww1 on ''evil'' Britain,America, ''joos'' or anyone except the Central Powers. Even Serbs or Balkan people are blamed, because of Gavrilo Princip's stupid and awful assasination of reform minded and pacifistic Franz Ferdinand. Of course it's not fair to blame only Germany and it's allies. All great powers and the two european military blocks Entente and Central Powers were to blame. But what about Austria Hungary as the cief and forgotton istigator? Even though they saw Russia might make war and there would be a european war, they made no compromise and made sure the ultimatum on serbia was very extreme and weren't happy when only 2or 3 of the worst clauses were rejected. Not even arbitration by foreign powers wasn't good enough. And who was behind this war party in Austria Hungary? Why it was those wonderful kultured, monocled austro-german aristocrats and military men of very old, ultraconservative, ultrareactionary and militaristic bent. Who else? Why those wonderful, equally cultured, ultraeuropean Hungarian chauvinistic aristocrats who said no to democratic reform and since 1910 had largely made short work of croatian autonomy. What about all the fanboys of habsburgs and Greater Hungary think of their idealized gods help unleash ww1 on Europe. See the essays of Robert Seton Watson, british historian and publicist for details on austro-hungarian foreign policy,domestic policies, nationalities question and ww1. Also his book The racial problem in Hungary, for a look at how opressed and humiliated the non-magyar nationalities of Hungary were. And about the bad government, abuses and tyrranous nature of hungarian aristocratic government.

That's because they are to blame for the war. Austria-Hungary made the ultimatum because their national security was in grave danger. The whole of the blame for both world wars can be placed wholly on the shoulders of the allies, there is no doubt about that.

[blogen]

chauvinistic,

Zero chauvinism. The liberal aristocracy were pro-Jewish, pro-minority right, pro-European. The sabotage of the liberal laws was petite burgeois civil resistance for example.

oligarchic, authoritarian,undemocratic nobles and high burgeois elitists ''liberal''.

This was the real liberalism, the 19th century English style liberalism. The Hungarian aristocracy copied the English regime, since the aristocracy did not want to adopt the German style autoritarian burgeois liberalism. And since the early 19th century England was the positive example for the Hungarian nobility onto the modernisation and industrialisation. But this was necessary too, after the French culture was too nationalistic and proletarian style leftist and the German was politically problematic in the post 48' kingdom.

[TheForeigner]

Yes, there was magyarization and there was political opression too. The laws were generous vainly in the 19th century, the practice was ugly often. But after trianon there were more brutal romanization and slovakization and political opression in the successor states. And the duality between the guaranteed rights and their execution ceased. There were no minority rights anymore. Not for the Magyars or Germans. So you did not have a problem with the oppression, not you were the oppressors this was your problem only.

The crocodile tears are not touching.

Funny how you aknowledge that laws and practice were not the same thing, yet you still praise the existence of laws that meant nothing in practice the existence of ''rights'' impossible to exercise. And you call it liberal and progressive. You have a logic deficiency. And it's not true that there were no minority rights in Romania after Trianon. Romania and a number of other small states were forced to sign a treaty guarenteeing rights of minorities, as part of the Versailles system.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Treaties Romania and Czechoslovakia always had relatively progressive minority policies.

[Stefan_Dusan]

That's because they are to blame for the war. Austria-Hungary made the ultimatum because their national security was in grave danger. The whole of the blame for both world wars can be placed wholly on the shoulders of the allies, there is no doubt about that.

Austria-Hungary snatched up Bosnia and Herzegovina after it was Serb rebels in Herzegovina who freed this from the Turks. They then tried to colonize Serbia, which manifested in the "Pig War" which they lost. Austria-Hungary wanted to expend into the Balkans down into Greece but Serbia was a stubborn bulwark, so we fucked their mothers in WW1, and that was it for their empire. Lesson: Don't fuck with Serbs.

[TheForeigner]

You should try and argue you point at least. Stop using the term national in the american meaning of state. Austria Hhungary was a multinational state and had no ''national interest''. It had state interests and Serbian terrorists were a menace and linked with elements in the Serbian government, but they should have been more moderate in their demands and collaborate with other European powers as had been the usage in European diplomacy, when confronted with a crisis like this. All great powers were to blame for the war and it's one of the few positive consequences that such a pseudo-state disintegrated. Even Hungarias were not happy because they wanted full independence and German Austrian nationalists wanted union with Germany. Only the most elite aristocratic overclass and the monarhy wanted to keep this state. There was no common citizenship, parlaiment, government(other than a small imperial cabinet with specific spheres of competence),no common bond uniting the peoples in kinship.

[Stefan_Dusan]

You should try and argue you point at least. Stop using the term national in the american meaning of state. Austria Hhungary was a multinational state and had no ''national interest''. It had state interests and Serbian terrorists were a menace and linked with elements in the Serbian government, but they should have been more moderate in their demands and collaborate with other European powers as had been the usage in European diplomacy, when confronted with a crisis like this. All great powers were to blame for the war and it's one of the few positive consequences that such a pseudo-state disintegrated. Even Hungarias were not happy because they wanted full independence and German Austrian nationalists wanted union with Germany. Only the most elite aristocratic overclass and the monarhy wanted to keep this state. There was no common citizenship, parlaiment, government(other than a small imperial cabinet with specific spheres of competence),no common bond uniting the peoples in kinship.

As soon as Austria-Hungary took BiH there was no more compromise possible, it meant war. And they got it, they just managed to drag into the world into it at the same time. Next time stay out of Serbian affairs.

[TheForeigner]

Zero chauvinism. The liberal aristocracy were pro-Jewish, pro-minority right, pro-European. The sabotage of the liberal laws was petite burgeois civil resistance for example.



This was the real liberalism, the 19th century English style liberalism. The Hungarian aristocracy copied the English regime, since the aristocracy did not want to adopt the German style autoritarian burgeois liberalism. And since the early 19th century England was the positive example for the Hungarian nobility onto the modernisation and industrialisation. But this was necessary too, after the French culture was too nationalistic and proletarian style leftist and the German was politically problematic in the post 48' kingdom.

As Robert Seton Watson makes clear in Racial problem of Hungary, it was not petty functionaries sabotaging good intentions of the government, but the policy of the government to not actually respect it's own laws which were only for show and to brag to naive foreigners of how progressive Hungary was.

[TheForeigner]

Ok Serbia had it's contribution but it wasn't the state to demolish Austria Hungary. Don't forget Russia and Romania, though I'm sure you want to. And the Anglo-French forces at Salonika. Who do you think were the worst warmongerers in Austria Hungary and the worst Slav haters? Were they more likely to be Hungarian or Austrian. What an awful thing to kill a pacifist and reformist like Franz Ferdinand though.Not to speak of his Czech wife who was also killed.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Ok Serbia had it's contribution but it wasn't the state to demolish Austria Hungary. Don't forget Russia and Romania, though I'm sure you want to. And the Anglo-French forces at Salonika. Who do you think were the worst warmongerers in Austria Hungary and the worst Slav haters? Were they more likely to be Hungarian or Austrian. What an awful thing to kill a pacifist and reformist like Franz Ferdinand though.Not to speak of his Czech wife who was also killed.

While no one expected it, even Serbs, we could have repelled the Austrians by ourselves.

Battle of Cer was first allied victory (Serbs vs Austria-Hungary)
Battle of Kolubara was their second attempt, with twice as many troops, and they lost that one spectacularly.

After 1914, Serbia was free land, and Austria-Hungary gave up on invading Serbia. It was Germany who needed to help the Ottomans, needed a route through Serbia, reorganized the invasion, this time not just with Austria-Hungary but with German and Bulgarian troops as well.

But if it was just us vs A-H, we would have fought them to a standstill.

[blogen]

Austria-Hungary snatched up Bosnia and Herzegovina after it was Serb rebels in Herzegovina who freed this from the Turks. They then tried to colonize Serbia, which manifested in the "Pig War" which they lost. Austria-Hungary wanted to expend into the Balkans down into Greece but Serbia was a stubborn bulwark, so we fucked their mothers in WW1, and that was it for their empire. Lesson: Don't fuck with Serbs.

You fucked nothing. We destroy our all Slavic enemy, the Serbian and the Russian state in that war, but the Central Powers suffered a defeat on the western front after long deadlock because of the Americans. Lesson: fuck the Balkan, but do not wage war against America!