Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25

Thread: The dangerous discourse of “the friend zone”.

  1. #1
    Veteran Member
    Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Calcifer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Last Online
    @
    mtDNA
    I1b
    Taxonomy
    Baltid
    Relationship Status
    Married
    Gender
    Posts
    26,430
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 34,606/119
    Given: 16,554/0

    6 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default The dangerous discourse of “the friend zone”.

    The dangerous discourse of “the friend zone”.



    This is the first image I got when I did a stock image search for “friend zone”. The implication is clear: Women have nothing of value to say besides, “I get to suck your cock now?”

    In response to the Elliot Rodger shooting, I wrote a piece for the American Prospect about “pick-up artists”—whose worldview clearly had a major impact on Rodger’s mentality, even as he was growing skeptical that their “techniques” would get him the sex he believed he deserved. There’s a lot of variety in the pick-up artist world, but one thread throughout most of it is this notion that women are fundamentally broken, programmed by evolution or whatever to fall in love with users and abusers and that the only way “nice” guys can get laid is to start embracing the emotional manipulations of users and abusers. But I spent a lot of time thinking about why so many men are attracted to PUA instead of boring old dating advice. Dating advice, most of which is aimed at women, focuses on fixing your own flaws and working at being a more attractive person overall. While PUA purports to have some of that, their selling point is usually more that the sexually frustrated young man is fine the way he is, and it’s women who are all messed up for not seeing it. (This is about selling points more than debating specific pieces of advice. Yes, both dating advice and PUA might, for instance, suggest dressing better. But dating advice is about dressing better to be better, whereas it’s packaged in PUA more like, “How to imitate the kind of assholes that get the chicks you rightfully deserve”. It’s the marketing that interests me.)

    And really, I realized that one reason PUA tends to run circles around dating advice aimed at men is because it taps into this flattering sense that men are owed sex and women are being assholes not to cough it up. Take, for instance, the concept of the “friend zone”, which is so widespread that it needs no explanation. Of course, I have to give one anyway: It’s the theory that women aren’t really into sex so much as they see it as a way to attract attention. So men who give them attention freely are seen as “free” sources of attention and women only give sex to men who make them “work” for attention. The notion that the “friend zone” is permanent stems from the idea that she sees you as a sucker who gives up the attention for free. The possibility that a woman might actually enjoy your company and assume you enjoy it, too, is discounted. The possibility that she may have given you a soft rejection and you’re just lingering around, exploiting her polite unwillingness to tell you to buzz off, is pointedly ignored. If you swim in this mentality for long enough, PUA pitches about tricking women into bed by being a dick are going to sound awfully good.

    With that in mind, I image searched for “friend zone” and found oodles of memes that make it quite clear the misogyny, self-pitying, and deliberate refusal to treat women like full human beings (instead painting them as sex dispensers whose inputs are broken) that is bundled up with that concept.



    Deliberately being literal about polite white lies was a common theme in many of these memes. Many of the men who are told they are handsome and charming are perhaps being subject to a slight exaggeration of their charms at the hands of a woman who is trying to let them down easy. Or maybe they are handsome and charming, but she likes sexy-ugly guys like Serge Gainsbourg. But either way, the point of the meme is to help establish that women are too stupid to know a good thing when they’ve got it. The possibility that the guy in question might not be right for her is dismissed out of hand.



    Indeed, the idea that women are sexually attracted to and only capable of loving “bad” men comes up over and over again. This not only is self-serving for the “friend zoned” man—feeding the idea that he is perfect and women are broken—but it also minimizes and distorts the realities of domestic abuse and violence. In many cases, the Nice Guys® take it to this level, suggesting that women end up with abusers instead of themselves because women are attracted to abuse. In reality, most abusers present as nice, loving men and only roll out the abuse after the woman is invested. In my experience, being a “nice guy” is not a shield against being abusive. On the contrary, men who feel entitled to women’s attention and affection are more, not less likely to get violently angry or emotionally abusive with women who aren’t being submissive enough in a relationship.



    Feeling entitled to “hot” women while resenting them for wanting to be with “hot” men is a common double standard.



    Women are not allowed to have desires beyond just wanting someone who meets the bare minimum of human decency. Sexual satisfaction, interests in common, a sense of humor, whatever it is she wants? All invalid. First guy who says “thank you” when she passes the salt has dibs.

    Once it’s established that men are hapless victims whose very niceness is supposedly being used against them—and that women are idiots who can’t love correctly—it becomes natural to believe that women should be punished for doling out their sexual attentions the “wrong” way. Some of those revenge fantasies are passive.



    Some are more active:





    No matter how you slice it, however, there’s a relentless drumbeat of messages targeting young men that amount to framing sex not as an activity two people enjoy together for their own reasons, but as a commodity that women possess and dole out based on a metric that is viewed as “unfair”. That when a woman you likes has sex with another man, he is taking something that “belongs” to you, something you “earned” by being meeting the minimum standard of human decency. (Or so you think. Passive aggressively lingering around someone who is trying to find away to politely tell you to buzz off is one Nice Guy® tactic, and that’s intensely rude and not nice at all. Giving overly extravagant gifts and putting someone on the spot? Also rude. Guilt tripping someone for not wanting you? Super rude. Assuming, without evidence, that a guy that a woman is dating must be an asshole because he’s not you? Nasty. Spinning out bullshit theories accusing women of being incapable, as a sex, of wanting what is good for them? Awful. I could go on, but you get the drift.) Once they’re worked up into this sense of entitlement, such young men are perfect marks for the “pick-up artist” industry.

    Now, there are definitely guys who get into pick-up and start to see that the “be an asshole” strategy is gross, and many of them, now that they’re actually out there talking to women, start to realize that women are a diverse group and that dating is less about securing the first “hot” woman you can pick off the herd and, instead, is about trying to find a mutually fulfilling relationship, whether for a night, a year, or many years.

    Then there are guys who get disillusioned with PUA because they correctly surmise that there’s no “trick” to make women like you, but they continue to subscribe to the misogynist theory that women have failed them by not giving them the sex they believe they’ve earned. Elliot Rodger boldly, inarguably identified as one of those men.

    This stuff was a problem before this shooting, because the attitudes you see on display here are hateful to women and misleading to men. But now it’s become deadly.


    Source: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/2...e-friend-zone/

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Thor2009's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Last Online
    02-12-2018 @ 05:15 AM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic
    Ethnicity
    Euro-American
    Ancestry
    English, Scottish, Irish, German
    Country
    United States
    Region
    Indiana
    Y-DNA
    R1b1b2 (U152/L20+)
    mtDNA
    K2b1a1
    Taxonomy
    Keltic Nordeby
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Posts
    336
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 723/2
    Given: 263/7

    9 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Here's the thing.
    Something I've noticed is that the guys who complain about "the friend zone" tend to look and dress like this:


    They also have horrible, annoying, self-centered personalities beyond this.

    They think that they are owed a woman because they're superior to everybody else.
    They think all you have to do to be a desirable person is to be smart and classy.
    They attempt to accomplish this by reciting science facts and being a radical atheist to be "smart", and by wearing a fedora to become "classy".
    They think they are funny by repeating memes they've heard on the internet.

    They think nothing about them (or at least their standards) has to change to attract people.

    I mean, fuck, I wouldn't date them either if I were a woman.

    Also, PUAs are completely retarded.
    They act like women aren't thinking humans, but stupid creatures who are extremely predictable and easily manipulated.
    I highly doubt many of their techniques work well at all.

  3. #3
    Veteran Member
    Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Calcifer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Last Online
    @
    mtDNA
    I1b
    Taxonomy
    Baltid
    Relationship Status
    Married
    Gender
    Posts
    26,430
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 34,606/119
    Given: 16,554/0

    3 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Stereotypes are dangerous.

    I have seen many times here on this forum the assumption that all women are the same. "Women are --- (insert whatever)". I am a woman, so is my neighbour. Does that make my desires and habits the same as hers? Does it make my viewpoints the same as every other woman in the world? No, it doesn't because (believe it or not), women are individuals. There is this assumption that "women" like the "alpha male", the cocky self-assured and arrogant bastard. While my neighbour may favour this type of male, does that mean that I do too just because I'm a woman? Women are not operated by some collective brain which controls each and every woman's opinions, desires, points of view, personalities - do I need to carry on? Are the woman who rejected your advances last night and as the woman standing next to you in the queue buying eggs the same? No. We might all have a vagina and titties, but if we go by that assumption then we must also assume that everyone is possession of a penis is the same too. People are individuals.

    And generally if different people have the same problem with you, the chances are that the problem is you. Exactly the same as the employee who doesn't last longer than 2 weeks in any job. Each and every boss who employs him is an asshole, according to him. While some bosses may be assholes, that doesn't mean every single employer in the world is an asshole. And if this person has twenty jobs in the space of the year, the question which begs answering is: Doesn't the fault perhaps lie with the EMPLOYEE?? Some employees are unemployable because they wreak havoc wherever they go.

    Some people (male or female) have endless relationships fraught with disaster. They all end up getting dumped unceremoniously after a few weeks of courtship. If this happens time and time again, perhaps they should focus their attentions inward and rectify the problems with themselves instead of blaming an entire gender (or entire league of employers) for their own failings.

    Possessing a degree does not automatically qualify a person for a certain position. Nor does it entitle them to this position. Having a certain set of genitals does not automatically qualify or entitle a person to have a relationship with the opposite set of genitals.

    This applies to both men AND women. If things start going pear-shaped, it is so easy to blame all "men" or "women" as the reason for unhappiness.

  4. #4
    Banned ProN00b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Last Online
    11-18-2014 @ 06:44 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Yugoslav
    Country
    European Union
    Taxonomy
    Mongoloid
    Politics
    Ultra liberal
    Hero
    Heimerdinger
    Religion
    Hihilistic hedonism
    Gender
    Posts
    314
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 151/30
    Given: 42/4

    3 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    I don't believe in such concept, it's just some men which aren't best when it's comes to women trying to justify their own fails by saying how all girls friendzone nice guys while dating bad jerks.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Felix Volkbein's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Last Online
    09-25-2015 @ 03:08 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Shitlord
    Ethnicity
    Costa Rican
    Ancestry
    Italy, Spain, America
    Country
    United States
    Religion
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Posts
    972
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,335/161
    Given: 1,062/318

    4 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    While I generally agree that no one's entitled to sex etc etc., I've also noticed that some women are hypocritical about this. For example, the ridiculous "fatphobia" accusations are disproportionately aimed at men by women. For whatever reason, men must consider dating overweight women lest they get called a fatphobic bigot. I rarely hear similar demands for women to date overweight men.

    Other examples abound with regard to certain fashion choices among liberal women, such as unshaved armpits, unshaved legs, ostentatious tattoos, etc. Once again, if a man simply states that he finds these things unattractive, it's interpreted as a veiled form of bigotry against women.

    In fairness, these attitudes are limited to an extreme sect of liberal women. It still irks me, especially since most of the men I know aren't attracted to fat women, to large tattoos on women, to unshaved pits, etc. either. Why must men be guilted into lowering their standards and going against their preferences, but not women?

  6. #6
    Johannes factotum
    Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Longbowman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Last Online
    Today @ 02:41 AM
    Location
    Holy Terra
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Jewish
    Ethnicity
    440/512 Ashkenazi, 41/512 Sephardic, 31/512 Musta'arabi, distant English, Portuguese & Spanish
    Ancestry
    67% Middle Eastern Neolithic, 20% European Mesolithic, 10% Eurasian Invasion, 2% Siberian, 1% Africa
    Country
    Great Britain
    Region
    England
    Y-DNA
    E-L29
    mtDNA
    K1a1b1a
    Taxonomy
    Atlanto-Med
    Politics
    Campanilismo
    Religion
    Awaiting the return of King Arthur
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Posts
    29,973
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 33,521/1,132
    Given: 36,456/1,733

    8 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Felix Volkbein View Post
    While I generally agree that no one's entitled to sex etc etc., I've also noticed that some women are hypocritical about this. For example, the ridiculous "fatphobia" accusations are disproportionately aimed at men by women. For whatever reason, men must consider dating overweight women lest they get called a fatphobic bigot. I rarely hear similar demands for women to date overweight men.

    Other examples abound with regard to certain fashion choices among liberal women, such as unshaved armpits, unshaved legs, ostentatious tattoos, etc. Once again, if a man simply states that he finds these things unattractive, it's interpreted as a veiled form of bigotry against women.

    In fairness, these attitudes are limited to an extreme sect of liberal women. It still irks me, especially since most of the men I know aren't attracted to fat women, to large tattoos on women, to unshaved pits, etc. either. Why must men be guilted into lowering their standards and going against their preferences, but not women?
    So basically, you actually are one of these guys.

    Look, first of, 95% of women shave their armpits and crap. But you know, you don't. So really, you shouldn't 'demand' it. And if a woman doesn't shave her armpits, and you don't like that, move on. Don't complain about it, it's her choice. Find some other girl.

    Second off, I've never actually heard 'fatphobic' complaints, ever. This is all a bit fanciful.
    Who is rich? He who is happy with what he has - Simeon ben Zoma, Ethics of the Fathers, Talmud, Avot 4:1

    Quote Originally Posted by zhaoyun View Post
    I'll say this once and I don't expect you to ever have me fucking repeat this again.

    Longbowman isn't just a member, he's a lifestyle.
    I live here. I also live here.

    Europeans worldwide * Longbowman's family on 23andme * Classify Longbowman * Ask Longbowman anything

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Anatolian Eagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Last Online
    10-05-2019 @ 10:23 AM
    Location
    Istanbul, Turkey
    Ethnicity
    Turkish
    Ancestry
    Anatolia and Balkans
    Country
    Turkey
    Hero
    Kemal Atatürk
    Age
    23
    Gender
    Posts
    1,904
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,016/170
    Given: 1,828/128

    3 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default


  8. #8
    Veteran Member Aviator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Last Online
    11-09-2019 @ 04:16 AM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Pilot
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Country
    United States
    Region
    Trondheim
    Y-DNA
    R1a1a
    mtDNA
    U5a1b1
    Taxonomy
    Nordid - Borreby
    Politics
    "Right wing extremist"
    Hero
    Erich Hartmann; Hans-Ulrich Rudel; Wernher von Braun; Charles Lindbergh
    Religion
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Posts
    3,408
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 5,406/94
    Given: 4,013/105

    3 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Only skimmed this, but here's my two cents:

    Men who use the term, "friend zone" and complain about it are lame.

    Feminists who complain about guys using the term, "friend zone" are lame.

    Both sides over react in opposite directions. Everyone just needs to shut up about this.

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Last Online
    06-14-2018 @ 02:52 PM
    Ethnicity
    Genetically engineered
    Ancestry
    Sclavenian+Bulgar
    Country
    Bulgaria
    Y-DNA
    Forced Evolutionary Virus
    Taxonomy
    Cromagnoid/Paleo Atlantid
    Politics
    Transhumanism
    Hero
    High Energy people
    Religion
    Not bowing to imaginary gods
    Relationship Status
    In an open relationship
    Age
    23
    Gender
    Posts
    12,914
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 16,651/1,291
    Given: 1,757/0

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Hahaha you don't see me complain about the friend zone.

    Some guy wastes his time being her nice friend,kissing her ass and running after her and I just come,slap her on the ass and give her some charms and shes mine.

    Long live the friend zone.

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    ur sister
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Ironic
    Ethnicity
    Persian
    Country
    Georgia
    Y-DNA
    I2
    mtDNA
    wasted to care
    Taxonomy
    MUH TEBID
    Politics
    are the problem
    Hero
    danishmend
    Religion
    is a private matter
    Age
    4
    Gender
    Posts
    14,463
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 17,643/580
    Given: 19,595/648

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Good thread

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. The Friend Zone
    By SkyBurn in forum Dating and Relationships
    Replies: 91
    Last Post: 06-03-2014, 09:09 PM
  2. Occasional Discourse on the Negro Question
    By Smeagol in forum Race and Society
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-27-2013, 11:16 PM
  3. Judaized Discourse - A Holocaust Over Blood Libel
    By Lulletje Rozewater in forum Off-topic
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-02-2011, 01:54 PM
  4. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-09-2010, 01:57 AM
  5. Discourse on Inequality (J.J Rousseau)
    By The Lawspeaker in forum The Bookshelf: Articles & Ebooks
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-11-2009, 10:56 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •