R1b: Indo-European or not?

[1stLightHorse]

There are five Y DNA samples from the Cardium pottery culture from 5000BC, 4 were G2a-P15 and 1 was E1b1b-V13, in line with Y DNA from other Neolithic European farmers. There are over 30 Y DNA samples from Neolithic west Europe, not one is R1b. West European specific R1b L11 spread rapidly(does not have a clear place of origin because of that) and is estimated to be 5,000 years old. R1b1a2-M269 first appears in ancient west European Y DNA in German Bell Beaker 4,600 years ago, that is exactly where it was expected to be based on research on modern people. R1b L11 is constant with spreading with Indo Europeans because it arrived when Indo European cultures did, and has language or culture specific subclades(Germanic R1b-S21, Urnfield R1b-U152, Insular Celtic R1b-L21, etc.). mtDNA from the Bell Beaker site of the two R1b samples, were obviously of Indo European origin not native Neolithic origin, so they were probably early western Indo Europeans.

Yes, due to the rapid spread of R1b throughout western europe it is indicative of an indo-european warlike people that used fast raiding/chariot tactics to strike and pillage whoever was living there at the time and eventually dominate the scene culturally and as we can see today, genetically.

[Fire Haired]

Anatolian R1b is different from western european one, apart from the fact that there is no S116, U152, U106, etc in Anatolia.

European-specific R1b1a2a1-L51 is a subclade of R1b1a2a-L23, which also takes up the majority of west Asian R1b. There is a east European-west Asian-specific brother clade of European L51, named Z103. There are probably many L23 subclades in west Asia that have not been discovered. Some west Asians also belong to R1b-M343 and R1b-M269 lineages that are apart of unknown subclades.

[EliasAlucard]

Anatolian R1b is different from western european one, apart from the fact that there is no S116, U152, U106, etc in Anatolia.

It doesn't matter, because no R1b was present amongst the proto-Indo-Europeans. Regardless of what Maciamo and Jean Manco say, it just wasn't there.

[Hevo]

It doesn't matter, because no R1b was present amongst the proto-Indo-Europeans. Regardless of what Maciamo and Jean Manco say, it just wasn't there.

Perhaps that will change, Klyosov is publishing a series of articles on R1b and related burial practices and according to a Russian member he said this to linguist Klein.

еперь вопрос – а почему я считаю, что там была гаплогруппа R1b? Объясняю. Это мне в частном порядке сообщил Л.С. Клейн, в январе 2014 года. Вот что он написал (и не в первый раз, это он мне сообщает последние три года):
Есть у меня ученик, Алексей Ковалев, он копал много лет в Монголии и Синьцзяне. Вот он поместил в Рос. Арх. Ежегоднике 2011 сенсационную статью «Великая чемурчекская миграция» – о происхождении чемурческский культуры Алтая и Синьцзяна прямиком из Западной и Южной Франции. Это III тыс. до н.э. Он связывает эту культуру с тохарами. У меня впечатление, что миграция доказана, а связь с тохарами вызывает ряд вопросов…

Полагаю, Вам будет интересно узнать, что мой ученик Алексей Ковалев, тот самый, который исследовал чемурчекскую культуру Алтая, Монголии и Синьцзяна (видимо, тохары), и выпустил сейчас уже две книги о ней, добился анализов ДНК по афанасьевцам и окуневцам. Два из трех афанасьевцев и один окуневец оказались R1b1 (M269), а один афанасьевец – R1b. Ковалев же имеет радиуглеродные даты по многим афанасьевцам: калибров. 3000-2600 до н.э… Чемурчекская культура совершенно четко из Франции.

Я ответил:
Советую А. Ковалеву передать, что ему стоит перед публикацией показать эти данные мне, чтобы потом не было конфуза. Он, надеюсь, имеет данные по трупоположению? …Я вовсе не исключаю, что в Южной Сибири были древние R1b, сам это описывал, и датировал по ДНК. Просто надо исключить неверные отнесения, и знать, кто определял эти R1b и R1b1, какие там гаплотипы (если их нет – это большой промах), и поставить это в исторический контекст. Думаю, что Вам это объяснять не надо, как и А. Ковалеву. Надеюсь, понятно, почему А. Ковалеву стоит со мной связаться?

К сожалению, данных по трупоположению ни в одной статье А. Ковалева не оказалось. Если это так – непростительное упущение для археолога. И досадная упущенная возможность идентифицировать принадлежность останков к определенному роду, к тому же R1b, например.

Two out of three afanasievo remains and one okunevo remains tested R1b1 (M269) and one afanasievan – R1b.

It's not peer reviewed yet so it's not certain but it's very interesting.

[EliasAlucard]

Perhaps that will change, Klyosov is publishing a series of articles on R1b and related burial practices and according to a Russian member he said this to linguist Klein.



Two out of three afanasievo remains and one okunevo remains tested R1b1 (M269) and one afanasievan – R1b.

It's not peer reviewed yet so it's not certain but it's very interesting.

I'm not saying there was absolutely no R1b males whatsoever in Yamnaya; there probably was a tiny minority of such males. If so however, they were not part of the proto-Indo-European tribe, and they had no Y-DNA effect on the initial spread of Indo-European languages.

Afanasievo is not Yamnaya,

[Hevo]

I'm not saying there was absolutely no R1b males whatsoever in Yamnaya; there probably was a tiny minority of such males. If so however, they were not part of the proto-Indo-European tribe, and they had no Y-DNA effect on the initial spread of Indo-European languages.

How do you know there was probably a tiny minority of such males? That's impossible to be sure atm, r1a has a strong Indo-European character no doubt but more Y haplogroup testing needs to be done to be certain about the R1b role.

[I've Her Son]

I am going to laugh my fucking ass off when all of these different stupid haplogroups (R1b, R1a, etc) thought to be instrumental to the Bronze-age peopling of Europe are going to be revealed as having a much more recent and less spectacular origin, and a link between intermingles with Negroids in colonial times.

[I've Her Son]

Just thought I'd add that the Euro/Euroanthro obsession with haplogroups resembles Japanese blood-type racial mysticism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_...panese_culture

[awyr dywyll]

I don't believe in Kurgan hypothesis, so IE and R1b-M269 must be among Neolithic European settlers

[Sizzo]

I don't believe in Kurgan hypothesis, so IE and R1b-M269 must be among Neolithic European settlers

If I remember well Cavalli-Sforza said that there's no contradiction between Gimbutas (Kurgan) and Renfrew's (Anatolia) theories about the Indo-European spread in Europe.