The Irish-Iberian Connection Theory is a Myth

[McCauley]

Within the last few months, the genetic genealogy community has placed a new SNP (L21 / rs11799226) on the Y chromosome phylogenetic tree downstream of the most frequent western European haplogroup (R1b). Preliminary results suggest the overwhelming majority of Irish R1b carry the mutation, while L21 is absent in the Iberian samples and subclades tested so far. R1b from England and continental northwestern Europe seem to be split between L21-derived and L21-ancestral. It's still early and I'd like to see more data, but I think L21 (and thus the direct male ancestor of the majority of the Irish) most likely originated in northwestern Europe. The supposed link between the Irish and Iberians was built on the high frequency of R1b Y-DNA in both regions. The autosomal and mtDNA data never supported any sort of special or close relationship between "Celts" and Basques; it's now clear that Y-DNA doesn't, either.



The assertion, that the Basques and British Celts have an especially close genetic connection is proving to be false.


Basques can trace their roots back to the Stone Age and are one of Europe's most distinct people, fiercely proud of their ancestry and traditions. The research adds to previous studies which have suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.
"The project started with our trying to assess whether the Vikings made an important genetic contribution to the population of Orkney," Professor David Goldstein of University College London (UCL) told BBC News.
'Statistically indistinguishable'
He and his colleagues looked at Y-chromosomes, passed from father to son, of Celtic and Norwegian populations. They found them to be quite different.
"But we also noticed that there's something quite striking about the Celtic populations, and that is that there's not a lot of genetic variation on the Y-chromosome," he said.
To try to work out where the Celtic population originally came from, the team from UCL, the University of Oxford and the University of California at Davis also looked at Basques.
"On the Y-chromosome the Celtic populations turn out to be statistically indistinguishable from the Basques," Professor Goldstein said.



The comparison was made because Basques are thought by most experts to be very similar to the people who lived in Europe before the advent of farming.


"We conclude that both of these populations are reflecting pre-farming Europe," he said. Professor Goldstein's team looked at the genetic profiles of 88 individuals from Anglesey, North Wales, 146 from Ireland with Irish Gaelic surnames, and 50 Basques.


"We know of no other study that provides direct evidence of a close relationship in the paternal heritage of the Basque- and the Celtic-speaking populations of Britain," the team write in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.



But it is still unclear whether the link is specific to the Celts and the Basques, or whether they are both simply the closest surviving relatives of the early population of Europe.
What is clear is that the Neolithic Celts took women from outside their community. When the scientists looked at female genetic patterns as well, they found evidence of genetic material from northern Europe.
This influence helped even out some of the genetic differences between the Celts and their Northern European neighbours.

http://www.protogermanic.com/2011/08...irish.html?m=1

[Sikeliot]

Maybe, but Iberians are still genetically more "northern" than other Southern Europeans, the exception being northern Italians.

[Fear Fiain]

the linguistic evidence can't be denied though, and look, I trust the hundreds of generations of my people who say that we come from the people of milesios, who came from what's now spain, than I do some know nothing scientist.
jules verne knew the earth was hollow a hundred years ago, modern science just found out this week.

[McCauley]

the linguistic evidence can't be denied though, and look, I trust the hundreds of generations of my people who say that we come from the people of milesios, who came from what's now spain, than I do some know nothing scientist.
jules verne knew the earth was hollow a hundred years ago, modern science just found out this week.

You know a lot less than this scientist, I'm quite sure of that.

Linguistic evidence? You do know the Celts came from Central Europe right? The linguistic connection they share comes from Central Europe. Your whole point is invalid because Celts didn't come from Iberia.

And what Irishman says he comes from Spain? You are an American and you don't know shit about what Irish people think. I'll ask Novella if she feels any connection with Iberians. I think her word would carry a lot more weight than some confused American of partial Irish descent.

[Fear Fiain]

You know a lot less than this scientist, I'm quite sure of that.

Linguistic evidence? You do know the Celts came from Central Europe right? The linguistic connection they share comes from Central Europe. Your whole point is invalid because Celts didn't come from Iberia.

And what Irishman says he comes from Spain? You an American and you don't know shit about what Irish people think. I'll ask Novella if she feels any connection with Iberians. I think her word would carry a lot more weight than some confused American of partial Irish descent.

a. read the book of invasions.
b. novella's a bad one to ask for obvious reasons, but then again she might vindicate my reference to the old myths. but srsly are you trolling?
c. celtiberian is the only continental celtic language to be found which is q celtic, like gaelic and manx. all other celtic languages such as breton, cornish, welsh, gaulish, etc, are/have been p celtic.
d. I think you mean predominant irish descent and culture. would you telll a first or second generation asian-american that they don't know shit about japanese or korean or viet culture?
why do you want to deny white americans our cultures? you're just racist against white people.

[McCauley]

a. read the book of invasions.
b. novella's a bad one to ask for obvious reasons, but then again she might vindicate my reference to the old myths. but srsly are you trolling?
c. celtiberian is the only continental celtic language to be found which is q celtic, like gaelic and manx. all other celtic languages such as breton, cornish, welsh, gaulish, etc, are/have been p celtic.

The book of invasions, the same book that says giants came to Ireland on flying ships? Yeah, that's definitely a good source for historical information. I doubt there is a single thing in there implying an Iberian connection anyway.

[McCauley]

Also, sharing the Q-Celtic language family doesn't prove any connection beyond a superficial language relation.

All it proves is that the same offshoot of Celtic tribes that settled in Spain also settled in Ireland. Also, that is not in the time period of when historians theorized that settlers came from Iberia. It was supposed to have happened before Celts even existed.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Within the last few months, the genetic genealogy community has placed a new SNP (L21 / rs11799226) on the Y chromosome phylogenetic tree downstream of the most frequent western European haplogroup (R1b). Preliminary results suggest the overwhelming majority of Irish R1b carry the mutation, while L21 is absent in the Iberian samples and subclades tested so far. R1b from England and continental northwestern Europe seem to be split between L21-derived and L21-ancestral. It's still early and I'd like to see more data, but I think L21 (and thus the direct male ancestor of the majority of the Irish) most likely originated in northwestern Europe. The supposed link between the Irish and Iberians was built on the high frequency of R1b Y-DNA in both regions. The autosomal and mtDNA data never supported any sort of special or close relationship between "Celts" and Basques; it's now clear that Y-DNA doesn't, either.



The assertion, that the Basques and British Celts have an especially close genetic connection is proving to be false.


Basques can trace their roots back to the Stone Age and are one of Europe's most distinct people, fiercely proud of their ancestry and traditions. The research adds to previous studies which have suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.
"The project started with our trying to assess whether the Vikings made an important genetic contribution to the population of Orkney," Professor David Goldstein of University College London (UCL) told BBC News.
'Statistically indistinguishable'
He and his colleagues looked at Y-chromosomes, passed from father to son, of Celtic and Norwegian populations. They found them to be quite different.
"But we also noticed that there's something quite striking about the Celtic populations, and that is that there's not a lot of genetic variation on the Y-chromosome," he said.
To try to work out where the Celtic population originally came from, the team from UCL, the University of Oxford and the University of California at Davis also looked at Basques.
"On the Y-chromosome the Celtic populations turn out to be statistically indistinguishable from the Basques," Professor Goldstein said.



The comparison was made because Basques are thought by most experts to be very similar to the people who lived in Europe before the advent of farming.


"We conclude that both of these populations are reflecting pre-farming Europe," he said. Professor Goldstein's team looked at the genetic profiles of 88 individuals from Anglesey, North Wales, 146 from Ireland with Irish Gaelic surnames, and 50 Basques.


"We know of no other study that provides direct evidence of a close relationship in the paternal heritage of the Basque- and the Celtic-speaking populations of Britain," the team write in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.



But it is still unclear whether the link is specific to the Celts and the Basques, or whether they are both simply the closest surviving relatives of the early population of Europe.
What is clear is that the Neolithic Celts took women from outside their community. When the scientists looked at female genetic patterns as well, they found evidence of genetic material from northern Europe.
This influence helped even out some of the genetic differences between the Celts and their Northern European neighbours.

http://www.protogermanic.com/2011/08...irish.html?m=1

The critique is cutting edge... ten years ago. This is very old news. In honor of how old this all is I'm going to watch Leave it to the Beaver.

[McCauley]

The critique is cutting edge... ten years ago. This is very old news. In honor of how old this all is I'm going to watch Leave it to the Beaver.

This was written in 2011. People here are just very daft and slow, and parrot outdated ideas because it suits their agenda.

[McCauley]

Bump, people need to stop passing off made-up theories as reality.