Aromanians/Vlachophones in Greece/Balkans

[ProTroll]

Vlachs in Romania self-identify as romanians,but still take pride in their ethnicity.They are richer than the average romanian and are extremely united.Most of them are businessman.They tend to stay only in they're communities,rarely marrying outside their ethnic group.

Also,they are extremely proud of Romania,even prouder than the average citizen.They tend to be very vocal patriots(Nicadorii,the legionnaires who assasinated I.G Duca were all vlachs).

How are the vlachs in Greece?

[Scholarios]

Pro-Romanian Vlach map (propaganda) but probably represents farthest migration patters of semi-nomadic people. Vlachs taking their flocks as far as Voetia and Black Sea.




Vlach migration patters, make final swoop into Northern Greece as precursors of Albanian tribal raids and settlement. Called by Byzantines under the blanket term "albanoservovlachoi"





Vlachophone villages of Pindos in 1900. (Notice villages of Greek names even before he Greek state extended to these areas- self-Hellenization)

The first mention of the Vlachs, a Latinophone minority that still exists in Greece and Albania, can be dated to the 10th century, when the word “Βλάχοι” first appears. This population was perfectly Orthodox: they fought for various Orthodox states, but felt no allegiance to Byzantium, and they often fought as allies of the two Bulgarian empires in the 10th and late 12th centuries. Many of them were settled in Thessaly, where their number was large enough to give their name to the province, which is frequently called during the late middle ages the “Great Vlachia” or the “Vlachia which is in Greece”. After the conquest of Thessaly by the state of Epirus in the 1210s, the Vlachs became the elite troops of the Epirote army against the Latin Crusaders as well as against the armies of Nicaea, a rival state to Byzantium. But Thessaly displayed a strong particularism, due to the presence of the Vlach element, and became independent in 1267/68 when the state of Epirus was divided between the two sons of the late Despot of Epirus, Michael
II. However, they never ruled it, ceding power to Greek, Latin or Serbian leaders, a fact which shows that there was no Vlach nationalism in Thessaly.
In Epirus, the Vlachs are nowadays present in the chain of the Pindos, mostly around Metsovo, and they were already present there in the middle ages. They are first mentioned in Epirus in the last quarter of the 11th century.

Their presence is also attested in Etolia, which is probably the “Little Vlachia”, spoken about by Sphrantzes, while the ancient region of Dolopia, crossed by the river Achelôos, was called “Upper Vlachia”In 1221, John Apokaukos, metropolitan of Naupaktos, received a complaint against a 130 Vlach named Constantine Aurelian, who was accused of raping a Greek girl and attacking her father. Then, in 1228, he had to judge the case of a Greek landlord charged with the accidental manslaughter of his insolent Vlach peasant
The episode took place in “Vlachia”, but probably in this text the word does not mean Thessaly, which was not in the territory of the Metropolis of Naupaktos, but in a territory peopled by the Vlach, possibly in Etolia
or in the mountains of Pindos.

A century later, the privilege of Andronikos II of 1321 for the Metropolis of Ioannina provides evidence for the existence of some Vlach communities in the area of Ioannina describing their various duties and exemptions
Vlachs possibly peopled the mountains of the Zagori, but this question does not have a clear datable answer. The Zagori is quoted for the first time in a privilege of 1319 by the same Andronikos II, without mention of Vlachs living there. Nowadays there appears in this region a clear preponderance of Vlach toponyms in the north and east, close to Thessaly, while Albanian toponyms are present in the west and south. It must be noted that
the two zones are not mutually exclusive.

Unfortunately, it is impossible to put a date on these toponyms: both Albanian and Vlach ones may be post-medieval, so it is impossible to determine absolutely if the people of the Zagori mentioned in 1399 and 1411
as soldiers of Ioannina were Albanians, Vlachs, or Greeks

In any case, the impression given is that, in the region of Zagori, there was a peaceful sharing out of the land between Vlachs and Albanians. This cohabitation and sometimes alliance of the two populations
who shared more or less the same way of life is attested in later periods, but we can imagine that it began in the middle ages. Indeed, in 1379, theAlbanian army that attacked Ioannina was helped by some Vlachs

Then we find the well-known tasteful expressions of “boulgaroalbanitoblachos” or “serbalbanitoboulgaroblachos” in texts written by Greek writers of course

These expressions may be the result of mixed marriages as well as of
confusion among authors. The confusion lasted until recently, since Albanians have often been confused with the Vlachs by contemporary scholars


On the other hand, the cohabitation of the Vlachs with the Greeks is another attested fact. This cohabitation was not always peaceful. As we saw from our sources, everyday conflicts between Greeks and Vlachs were probably frequent. The hostility against the
Vlachs may be inferred in Greek sources external to Epirus
Our judicial sources of course record only the litigious relationships, but they seem to be quite representative of the mutual hostility between the sedentary land-owning Greeks and the exploited Vlachs with their semi-nomadic way of life. However, our sources show that the Vlachs of Epirus were well-integrated, despite their disadvantage, in the political, social and
economical system dominated by the Greeks. The documents of 1228 and 1321 showVlachs in rural areas working the lands owned by the Greeks of the city. In the privilege of 1321, one group of Vlachs is exempted from military service, a fact which implies that the other Vlachs mentioned in this document participated in the army of Ioannina. In any case, there is no trace of any rebellion of the Vlachs against the Greeks
in Epirus. Symptomatically, they are not present in the privilege of Andronikos II for the city of Ioannina in 1319, which presents the status of the population of Ioannina.

The Ethnic Composition of Medieval Epirus

"Vlachs" and "Aromanians"

Even experts on Greek issues or Southeastern Europe have often never even heard of Vlachs or Aromanians because they appear as Greeks, Romanians, Albanians, Serbs etc.[1] But if somebody begins to study them and to trace their footprints, he will quickly observe that there is hardly any part of the Balkan peninsula where they have not played a role.

The non-uniform use of the terms Vlachs and Aromanians requires a short definition.[2] The term Vlachs is not only the more widely used of the two, but it can refer to varied groups like the so called Meglenoromanians, the Istroromanians, the Timok Vlachs, the ancestors of the Romanians or the Vlach Roma. In Greece there can be found Aromanians (known also as Aroumanians, Aromunians, Cincars, Kutsovlachs, Macedoromanians), a small number of Meglenoromanians (known also as Meglenite Vlachs) and small groups of Vlach Roma – all of them called Vlachoi in Greek popular speech. Further, in all over Greece Vlach may simply mean shepherd. So we can find regions where even the Greek-speaking Sarakatsans are called Vlachs. In central Greece, south of the Agrinio-Karpenisi-Lamia line one may find so called Vlachs, who do not speak Aromanian but who call their regional Greek dialect Vlach. Most inhabitants of Athens associate the term Vlachos with rural, lesser civilised and uncouth people. For others, they are nothing more than good cheese-makers or lamb-producers. In other regions, Vlacha, Vlachos or Vlachikos is the name of a dance,[3] so on many Aegean islands (esp. Naxos, Samos, Rhodes, Carpathos) and in Cyprus.[4]
Vlach is the ethnonym used by the surrounding societies, while Aromanians define themselves - depending on which dialect group they belong to - as Armâńi or Rrămăńi, the self-characterisation, which was the base for the scientific term Aromanian. Speakers of Aromanian define themselves as belonging to the "fara armāneascā" (Aromanian tribe), or, more rarely, to the "populu armānescu" (Aromanian people). In Aromanian there is no modern word for nation or ethnic (and, of course, neither for minority), but when trying to describe this term in their own language, they have quite a lot of possibilities, adopting similar words from other languages like "miletea armāneascā" (from Turkish millet), "laou armānescu" (from Greek laos, i.e. people), "ginsā armāneascā" (from Turkish cins, i.e. genus or "ghimtā armāneascā" (from Albanian gjint, i.e. genus).[5] Only a few Aromanians use the neologism "naţie" (nation).

Most Aromanians live in northern Greece, further important settlement areas can be found in southern Albania, the Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), the Rhodope Mountains and the Dobrudja. The geographical concentration of Aromanians in Greece is in the Pindos mountains, its ridges and the surrounding plains in Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia, the Vermion mountains and Mount Olympus.[6]

From first Aromanian Movement to the "Ullah millet"

The emergence of a consciousness which can be characterised as national probably did not occur among the Aromanians before the beginning of national movements of the peoples of Southeastern Europe at the beginning of the 19th century. In the Byzantine and Ottoman period, orthodox Christians defined themselves, regardless of language and culture, as Romans: in Greek Romaioi, later Romioi, in Latin Romani, later Români and Armâńi. Before Aromanians began to develop their own consciousness or to orient themselves in respect to other peoples and their national movements, the most important aspect of self-identification was mainly as belonging to a millet (orthodox Christians) and secondarily to a professional group (shepherds, craftsmen, merchants etc.). Due to traditional work as nomadic herders and due to persecution (especially by Turkish-Albanian troops), Aromanians are dispersed all over the Balkans. When at the beginning of the 19th century an Aromanian movement could be observed especially in the Aromanian diaspora in Buda and Vienna, large numbers of Aromanians were already assimilated into the societies of many regions or were in the state of being assimilated. Albanians take note of this in regards to Arvanites- my note. Thus we have to distinguish between the "national Aromanian movement" as such on the one hand, and their participation in other national movements on the other hand.

Most common streams of national orientation among Aromanians were and are pro-Greek and pro-Romanian.[7] The Greek-Romanian conflict on the so called "Aromanian question" split the Aromanians into different factions, i.e. those who consider themselves as being Romanian, those who consider themselves as being Greek and those who consider themselves as being Aromanian. Since the Aromanians belonged to the Greek Patriarchate and their cultural and economic activities were bound to the Greek church,[8] especially the wealthy urbanised Aromanians have been active promoters of the Greek language and Greek culture for a long time. Greek was already in the 17th and 18th century a lingua franca[9] in large parts of Southeastern Europe. The knowledge of Greek was the key to education and to a higher social status and in this process it did not play any role if Greek was spoken as a mother or as a foreign language.[10] A Greek was above all a peddler or merchant,[11] so that men of wealth (also of Albanian, Vlach, Macedo-Slav and Bulgarian origin) in the 18th century normally identified themselves as such.[12] The first written documents in Aromanian were written with the Greek alphabet and did not have the intention to teach Aromanian, but to spread the Greek language. The success of the Greek language among the Aromanians was not only caused by a few individuals promoting Greek culture, but mostly by increasing contacts with Greek neighbours and the Greek language as the most important commercial language. A lot of settlements in central Greece became hellenised without the influence of political or church activists.

The development of a specifically Aromanian identity can be observed in the early Aromanian diaspora. Especially Aromanian grammars and language booklets document a clear consciousness of latinity/romanity;[13] in 1815 the Aromanians of Buda and Pest asked to have their language used for orthodox liturgy.[14] Peyfuss[15] emphasises that "this Aromanian movement cannot be reduced to activity of Romanian propaganda in Turkey", but has characteristics of a "typical national movement for the 19th century". In the 1860s, soon after the establishment of independent Romania, the Romanian national movement and its extensive educational policy in Macedonia, Thessaly and Epirus began to influence Aromanian activities. Since then, Aromanian activities were automatically bound to Romania.

After the establishment of a Macedoromanian committee in 1860 in Bucharest, Romania began to train teachers for Macedonia and in 1864 the first Romanian ("Aromanian") school was established in Macedonia by Dimitrie Atanasescu in the village of Trnovo. Soon other Romanian schools followed, and at the beginning of the 20th century there already existed 100 Romanian churches, 106 Romanian schools with more than 4 000 pupils and 300 teachers in the regions of Macedonia and Epirus.[16] At these schools only initial instruction was given in Aromanian, more advance lessons were in Romanian. Aromanian patriots such as Apostol Mărgărit, originally a Greek teacher from Avdella, and Constantin Belemace from Malovište show us that most active participants of the Romanian movement were not Romanians, but Aromanians.[17]

I suggest characterising this movement as Aromanian-Romanian.[18] It culminated in the recognition of the Aromanians by decree (irade) as Ullah millet (in Greek vlachiko mileti, often interpreted as Aromanian nation). With the support of the Great Powers on 22nd May 1905 they acquired from the Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid all the rights of a millet with the exception of a religious head.[19]

From "millet" to "nation"

The range of different forms of identity and the resulting dilemma of the division of fundamental alignments within the Aromanian communities was conditioned on the one hand by their cultural and mental proximity to the Greeks and on the other hand by the proximity of their language to the Romanian. The recognition of the "Ullah millet", the influence of different national movements, especially those of Greece and Romania, and the influence of foreign powers in the southern Balkans, led to further division and clashes. The Greek-Romanian conflict achieved its climax in the last and most violent phases of the Macedonian Struggle (1903-1908), when most Aromanian groups fought on the pro-patriarchate side, while others took sides with the pro-Bulgarian exarchists. Confrontation between differently oriented Aromanians led to bloodshed.[20] The increased tension between the different groups in 1906 led to the breaking-off of diplomatic relations between Romania and Greece.[21] Since then, the "Ullah millet" has been called a "Romanian minority" and the Aromanians were no longer divided into pro-Greeks and pro-Romanians, but into Greeks (Neo-Hellenes) and Romanians.

A different orientation began in 1917, when Italian troops advanced via Albania into Epirus[22] and founded, with the help of Alkiviadis Diamantis, the "Principate of Pindos" in the area of Aromanian settlement. Italy undertook attempts to convert the pro-Romanian Aromanians into pro-Italian, which succeeded to a small degree.[23] Similar attempts were undertaken during the Second World War, when the Aromanian members of the "Roman Legion" fought on the side of the Italian troops.[24] On the other hand, a large number of Aromanian villages were destroyed by Italian and German troops. In May 1941, Diamantis demanded a Vlach state with the support of the Italians and suggested putting the Romanian schools under Italian authority. With the sympathy for the Italians grew the number of philocatholics among the Aromanians, but the traditional identification with the Orthodox Church kept the majority of the Aromanians closer to modern Hellenism.

The Romanian education policy ceased to be in most Balkan countries before the Second World War, whereas most Romanian schools in Greece continued to exist until the late 1940s.

Can "chameleons" build their own nationhood?

In the case of the Aromanians there has been a significant discrepancy within their communities in terms of education and wealth. The traditionalism and backwardness of rural groups and the greater progressiveness of their urban counterparts, completely different settlement forms and ways of life were elements that divided the community. The Aromanians live, for historical and socio-economic reasons, on the community perimeters of peoples of other ethnic origin and thus merge with these, leading to either a form of double identity or complete assimilation. Usually Aromanians who had economic success as tradesmen or caravan leaders assimilated very fast to other nations, whereas the many semi-nomadic Aromanian peasants, perceived as a lower class, have not developed a national elite. The most powerful Aromanian elites, those who had the means to be a crucial element in the promotion and dissemination of a national consciousness preferred to engage in the projects of various other national movements, and thus the elites of Aromanian culture tended to play key roles in the national formation of ethnic groups other than the Aromanian.

The irade, which founded an administratively coherent Ullah millet, encouraged Vlach national identity in the Ottoman Empire of the early 20th century but it did not result in the creation of a widespread national Aromanian consciousness or the development of an Aromanian nationality. The assimilation of the upper class and their involvement in other national movements was already too advanced. Not even the support from their linguistic relatives in Romania helped in their unification since few Aromanians looked to Romania as a patron.[25]

These characteristics of Aromanian identity are probably behind Nicolau[26] calling the Aromanians "les caméléons des Balkans", which in turn led Balamaci[27] to say that the Aromanians were "born to assimilate" and Gavrilović[28] that their identity is "able to melt with Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian, Christian-Albanian or Romanian identity". Exactly this shifting of identities, this "chameleonic" flexibility, made the Aromanians not only one of the most polyglot groups in Southeastern Europe but also an economically and politically very strong one. Thus, when asking for the characteristics that have hindered the formation of Aromanian nationhood, we have to observe their participation in the nation-building of their neighbouring peoples first. Economically and politically, Aromanians had the possibility to develop their own nation, but the high level of geographical dispersion and ethnic intermixing were hindering and made these national aspirations quite difficult. I suggest that their economic superiority even prevented them from developing their own nationality and accelerated their national absorption. Improving their economic and educational wealth, they adopted the languages of the majorities (especially the Greek one) and renounced their own language. Not even their religion could hinder this absorption (as in the case of the Jews) since they were Orthodox like their neighbours.

Of course, the absorption of the Aromanians by other nations was strengthened additionally by the fact that important members of their intelligentsia and elites had emigrated; predominantly the economically weaker groups remained in the homeland. Thus, since the 18th century the Aromanian diaspora outside of the Balkans has played a decisive role in the development of Aromanian identity. Even today, attempts to improve the standing of Aromanian identity, language and culture is mainly undertaken by those of the diaspora in Germany, France, the United States and Australia.

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_1.htm

[ProTroll]

I believe this should be a problem between the greeks and the magyars.The magyars recognize the aromanians as romanians because it fits they're agenda of barren transylvania when they came.

The greeks don't want to associate the aromanians with the romanians because....

The romanians recognize the aromanians as south danube romanians because of they're language and similar haplogroups.

You should post a new topic in the hungarian forum.It will pretty much turn into a flame war.It will be fun to see

[Crn Volk]

They are essentially Romanized native Balkanites. In Macedonia they have mostly been Macedonianized, but a small minority exists. They are treated well and are even a constituent people. We have Vlach heroes of Macedonia who fought with us for Macedonia's independence. In saying this though, there are Vlachs who became pro-Greek or Grkomani and are extremely anti-R.Macedonia. They usually come from Greece though.

[Trun]

Do you know if they relate with Vlachophones in Greece?

No idea, I believe so. But they relate mostly to Bulgarians (those living in Bulgaria) and to Romanians of course.

[Vlach]

A more neutral source wouldn't be bad.

Dude, aromanian, istroromanian, and romanian are brother languages.

Aromanian: Vocala easti un son dit zburãrea-a omlui, faptu cu tritsearea sonorã, libirã sh-fãrã cheadicã, a vimtului prit canalu sonor (adrat di coardili vocali shi ntreaga gurã) icã un semnu grafic cari aspuni un ahtari son.

Romanian: Vocala este un sunet din vorbirea omului, făcut cu trecerea sonoră, liberă şi fără piedică, a vântului prin canalul sonor (compus din coardele vocale şi întreaga gură) sau un semn grafic care reprezintă un atare sunet.

[Scholarios]

Dude, aromanian, istroromanian, and romanian are brother languages.

Aromanian: Vocala easti un son dit zburãrea-a omlui, faptu cu tritsearea sonorã, libirã sh-fãrã cheadicã, a vimtului prit canalu sonor (adrat di coardili vocali shi ntreaga gurã) icã un semnu grafic cari aspuni un ahtari son.

Romanian: Vocala este un sunet din vorbirea omului, făcut cu trecerea sonoră, liberă şi fără piedică, a vântului prin canalul sonor (compus din coardele vocale şi întreaga gură) sau un semn grafic care reprezintă un atare sunet.

Neutral source for him means you need to show him 10 non-Romanian sources - each of which he'll quip about and challenged as biased while not providing any contradictory sources of his own.

But seriously ... Romanian and Aromanian look The same in some older writing. But I was talking to my Romanian coworker- he claimed he couldn't understand it at all spoken. Written he could understand some of. Does that sound right to you?

[Faklon]

Dude, aromanian, istroromanian, and romanian are brother languages.

Aromanian: Vocala easti un son dit zburãrea-a omlui, faptu cu tritsearea sonorã, libirã sh-fãrã cheadicã, a vimtului prit canalu sonor (adrat di coardili vocali shi ntreaga gurã) icã un semnu grafic cari aspuni un ahtari son.

Romanian: Vocala este un sunet din vorbirea omului, făcut cu trecerea sonoră, liberă şi fără piedică, a vântului prin canalul sonor (compus din coardele vocale şi întreaga gură) sau un semn grafic care reprezintă un atare sunet.

I'm adressing this:"Aromanians are south-danube romanians that's the official position of Romanian Academy".

Not so much the language.

[Faklon]

Neutral source for him means you need to show him 10 non-Romanian sources - each of which he'll quip about and challenged as biased while not providing any contradictory sources of his own.

Smartass internet Pericles again.

Go find Raine or the Albos and play the Pericles,I know you miss them.

[Faklon]

Kekaumenos General about Vlachs in Greece at 1000 A.C

1st paragraph describe them 100% accurate (greedy,dishonest,irreligious,clannish-a certain balkan nation comes in mind)

Γένος άπιστον τε παντελώς και διεστραμμένον, μήτε εις θεόν έχον πίστιν ορθήν μήτε εις βασιλέα μήτε εις συγγενή ή εις φίλον, αλλά αγωνιζόμενον πάντας καταπραγματεύεσθαι, ψεύδεται δε πολλά και κλέπτει πάνυ, ομνύμενον καθεκάστην όρκους φρικωδεστάτους προς τους εαυτού φίλους και αθετούν ραδίως ποιούν τε αδελφοποιήσεις και συντεκνίας και σοφιζόμενον δια τούτων απατάν τους απλουστέρους, ουδέποτε δε εφύλαξε πίστιν προς τινα, ουδέ προς τους αρχαιοτέρους βασιλείς των Ρωμαίων
Πολεμηθέντες παρά του βασιλέως Τραϊανού και παντελώς εκτριβέντες εάλωσαν, και του βασιλέως αυτών του λεγομένου Δεκαβάλου αποσφαγέντος και την κεφαλήν επί δόρατος αναρτηθέντος εν μέση τη πόλει Ρωμαίων. Ούτοι γαρ εισιν οι λεγόμενοι Δάκαι και Βέσοι. Ώκουν δε πρότερον πλησίον του Σάου, ον νυν ποταμόν Σάβαν καλούμεν, ένθα Σέρβοι αρτίως οικούσιν, εν οχυροίς και δυσβάτοις τόποις. Τούτοις θαρρούντες υπεκρίνοντο αγάπην και δούλωσιν προς τους αρχαιοτέρους των Ρωμαίων βασιλείς και εξερχόμενοι των οχυρωμάτων ελεΐζοντο τας χώρας των Ρωμαίων, όθεν αγανακτήσαντες κατ’ αυτών, ως είρηται, διέφθειραν αυτούς, οι και εξελθόντες των εκείσε διεσπάρησαν εν πάση τη Ηπείρω και Μακεδονία, οι δε πλείονες αυτών ώκησαν την Ελλάδα

Eiha vrei ki afto tis proalles.

http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=2213