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Thread: NATIVE AMERICAN INDIAN WARS.

  1. #11
    Veteran Member Armand_Duval's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravado View Post
    Armando, do you think the Spaniards would have been able to win the war without the help of the Tlaxcalteca warriors?
    At least not in their first expedition.

    The Spaniards wouldn't have been able to defeat the Aztecs without their allies but their allies wouldn't have been able to defeat the Aztecs by themselves either.

    Tenochtitlan was unassilable and the Aztecs armies were almost invinceble, it was the Spanish war techniques, the steel and the horses who tipped the balance in favour of the spaniards and their allies.

    The Battle of San Pasqual was a military encounter that occurred during the Mexican-American War in what is now the San Pasqual Valley community of the city of San Diego, California. On December 6 and December 7, 1846, the Californios, and their Presidial Lancers, led by General Don Andres Pico, (1810-1876), defeated Stephen W. Kearny´s US Army column of 150 men.

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    En este foro y en la vida real existe la creencia de que los amerindios eran "débiles", ya sea por supremacismo europeo, por meter a todos los pueblos amerindios en el mismo saco (como si no hubiese diferencias entre un taíno y un apache por ejemplo) o por quitarle méritos a los conquistadores españoles que "solo se enfrentaron a unos pocos indios selváticos en taparrabos".

    Pero veamos por ejemplo los aztecas, si en toda la historia universal existe una civilización que se pueda parecer a lo que fue Esparta en su época de maximo esplendor, son los aztecas. Los aztecas eran una civilización culturalmente avanzada. No sé por que la gente está empeñada en pensar que los aztecas eran unos indios semiprehistoricos que vivian entre los árboles (bueno, si lo se, por culpa de Hollywood). Cuando nacía un niño, exactamente igual que hacían los espartanos, era observado minuciosamente por los sacerdotes...si tenía una tara, se le sacrificaba directamente. A los pocos años entraban a formar parte de los colegios de soldados águila y jaguar y allí se les sometía, desde muy niños, a un entrenamiento físico y mental salvaje, para convertirlos en máquinas de guerra...solamente existió en la historia un sistema educativo similar: la Agogé de Esparta.

    Los aztecas sometían a los demás pueblos y los esclavizaban, llegaban hasta el sur de lo que es hoy EEUU donde los apaches y demás tribus les tenían autentico temor, mucho más que a los vaqueros. Sus armas tampoco eran de juguete. Cierto que no conocían los metales...pero sí la obsidiana. La obsidiana es un material a nivel molecular mucho más afilado que el acero (los bisturís de cirujano hoy en día se hacen con este material). Como cuenta Bernal Díaz del Castillo, los aztecas tenian montantes de dos manos con los que decapitaban a un hombre de un tajo. Además tenían el Atlatl, un lanzador de javalinas que le daba una potencia capaz de atravesar un brazo o una pierna cubierta por cuero. Cierto que la letalidad de este arma era mucho menor que la de un arco o un arcabuz...pero esa era parte de la gracia, dejarte incapacitado en el campo de batalla para volver a recogerte luego....y el que quedaba con una javalina atravesada en la pierna tirado, prefería cortarse las venas el mismo a que lo cogieran con vida los aztecas. Tampoco tenían miedo a los caballos, el primer caballo que vieron lo degollaron como cuenta el mismo cronista.

    La estrategia de Cortés siempre fue defensiva. Siempre fue "en son de paz" y nunca permitió a sus hombres lanzar contraataques. Los españoles se cerraban en un "cuadro de infantería" y "salían a la contra". Se limitaban a defenderse y a permitir que los aztecas se estrellaran una y otra vez contra su defensa. En Otumba, Cortés decidió un cambio de estrategia. Se abrió el cuadro y la caballería (5 hombres en 5 caballos) lanzó un contraataque a fondo...a la desesperada. Como era la primera vez que hacía algo así, pilló desprevenidos a los aztecas que tenían a sus mejores tropas en el frente (tenían derecho a ese honor), quedando en retaguardia el cacique con la escoria (salvo su guardia personal, claro). No hizo falta vencer a la guardia personal..con matar al cacique fue suficiente para que cundiera el pánico. Se corrieron rumores y la confusión prendió por todo el ejército azteca, que optaron por retirarse. Dicen que se retiraron porque murió su jefe y era tradición....los cojones. Se retiraron porque los "pretendientes al trono" no querían perder a sus hombres pues los iban a necesitar para presentar su candidatura. Además, los españoles eran muy pocos...ya poco daño podían hacer. O eso creían.

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    What ever happened to the remaining Tlaxcallan indigenous? Do they still exist as a tribe or nation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominiguevo View Post
    What ever happened to the remaining Tlaxcallan indigenous? Do they still exist as a tribe or nation?
    The vast majority died and mixed into the mainstream population.

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    Admiro la cosmología de esos pueblos ameríndios, y por supuesto su arquitectura tan compleja.

  6. #16
    Veteran Member Armand_Duval's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empecinado View Post
    En este foro y en la vida real existe la creencia de que los amerindios eran "débiles", ya sea por supremacismo europeo, por meter a todos los pueblos amerindios en el mismo saco (como si no hubiese diferencias entre un taíno y un apache por ejemplo) o por quitarle méritos a los conquistadores españoles que "solo se enfrentaron a unos pocos indios selváticos en taparrabos".

    Pero veamos por ejemplo los aztecas, si en toda la historia universal existe una civilización que se pueda parecer a lo que fue Esparta en su época de maximo esplendor, son los aztecas. Los aztecas eran una civilización culturalmente avanzada. No sé por que la gente está empeñada en pensar que los aztecas eran unos indios semiprehistoricos que vivian entre los árboles (bueno, si lo se, por culpa de Hollywood). Cuando nacía un niño, exactamente igual que hacían los espartanos, era observado minuciosamente por los sacerdotes...si tenía una tara, se le sacrificaba directamente. A los pocos años entraban a formar parte de los colegios de soldados águila y jaguar y allí se les sometía, desde muy niños, a un entrenamiento físico y mental salvaje, para convertirlos en máquinas de guerra...solamente existió en la historia un sistema educativo similar: la Agogé de Esparta.

    Los aztecas sometían a los demás pueblos y los esclavizaban, llegaban hasta el sur de lo que es hoy EEUU donde los apaches y demás tribus les tenían autentico temor, mucho más que a los vaqueros. Sus armas tampoco eran de juguete. Cierto que no conocían los metales...pero sí la obsidiana. La obsidiana es un material a nivel molecular mucho más afilado que el acero (los bisturís de cirujano hoy en día se hacen con este material). Como cuenta Bernal Díaz del Castillo, los aztecas tenian montantes de dos manos con los que decapitaban a un hombre de un tajo. Además tenían el Atlatl, un lanzador de javalinas que le daba una potencia capaz de atravesar un brazo o una pierna cubierta por cuero. Cierto que la letalidad de este arma era mucho menor que la de un arco o un arcabuz...pero esa era parte de la gracia, dejarte incapacitado en el campo de batalla para volver a recogerte luego....y el que quedaba con una javalina atravesada en la pierna tirado, prefería cortarse las venas el mismo a que lo cogieran con vida los aztecas. Tampoco tenían miedo a los caballos, el primer caballo que vieron lo degollaron como cuenta el mismo cronista.

    La estrategia de Cortés siempre fue defensiva. Siempre fue "en son de paz" y nunca permitió a sus hombres lanzar contraataques. Los españoles se cerraban en un "cuadro de infantería" y "salían a la contra". Se limitaban a defenderse y a permitir que los aztecas se estrellaran una y otra vez contra su defensa. En Otumba, Cortés decidió un cambio de estrategia. Se abrió el cuadro y la caballería (5 hombres en 5 caballos) lanzó un contraataque a fondo...a la desesperada. Como era la primera vez que hacía algo así, pilló desprevenidos a los aztecas que tenían a sus mejores tropas en el frente (tenían derecho a ese honor), quedando en retaguardia el cacique con la escoria (salvo su guardia personal, claro). No hizo falta vencer a la guardia personal..con matar al cacique fue suficiente para que cundiera el pánico. Se corrieron rumores y la confusión prendió por todo el ejército azteca, que optaron por retirarse. Dicen que se retiraron porque murió su jefe y era tradición....los cojones. Se retiraron porque los "pretendientes al trono" no querían perder a sus hombres pues los iban a necesitar para presentar su candidatura. Además, los españoles eran muy pocos...ya poco daño podían hacer. O eso creían.
    Llevas mucha razón en lo que dices, vale la pena que los que piensen que los aztecas eran indios que vivian en la edad de piedra lean el link que pongo aqui mismo a continuacion.

    Dice el padre Acosta:

    Ninguna cosa más me ha admirado, más digna de alabanza, que el cuidado y orden que el criar a sus hijos tenían los mexicanos. Porque entendiendo bien que en la crianza e institución de la niñez y juventud consiste toda la buena esperanza de la república, dieron en optar a sus hijos de regalo y libertad que son dos partes de aquella edad y en ocuparlos en ejercicios provechosos y honestos (León, 1959).

    Soustelle observa:

    Es admirable que en esa época y en ese continente, un pueblo indígena de América haya practicado la educación obligatoria para todos y que no hubiera un solo niño mexicano del siglo XVI, cualquiera que fuera su origen social, que estuviera privado de escuela. (Ibídem)
    http://www.monografias.com/trabajos8...-educar2.shtml

    Ciertamente existe una similitud importante entre Los Aztecas y Griegos y Romanos, por descabellado que a algunos les pueda sonar.

    The Battle of San Pasqual was a military encounter that occurred during the Mexican-American War in what is now the San Pasqual Valley community of the city of San Diego, California. On December 6 and December 7, 1846, the Californios, and their Presidial Lancers, led by General Don Andres Pico, (1810-1876), defeated Stephen W. Kearny´s US Army column of 150 men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravado View Post
    The vast majority died and mixed into the mainstream population.
    OMG, that's so sad. but they were royal to the spanish no? they deserved more that rather than going extinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominiguevo View Post
    OMG, that's so sad. but they were royal to the spanish no? they deserved more that rather than going extinct.
    Many died because of the wars they engaged in by becoming allies of the Spaniards. Besides participating in the military campaigns in central Mexico the Tlaxcaltecas also fought their way to the northern region.

    They were very ferocious warriors. There is a legend about a Tlaxcalteca warrior that you might enjoy reading:

    Tlahuicole
    Born: 1497
    The Aztecs were tough, hardcore ball-busters whose penchant for violence and righteous unrelenting groin-kicking didn't leave much to the imagination, but in the late fifteenth century there was one badass warrior who dared to defy their ever-expanding empire of blood – Chief Tlahuicole of the Tlaxcalan tribe. Tlahuicole (whose name is occasionally spelled Tlalhuicole by people who are big fans of putting random consonants in weird places) was a pretty insane face-smashing nutcracker in his own right, and he wasn't just going to roll over and expose his soft underbelly to the sacrificial pointiness without at least taking some motherfuckers along for the ride. Tasked with leading his warriors against the aggression of the unstoppable Aztec Empire, Tlahuicole was determined to protect his peoples' way of life and avoid having his brave warriors ritualistically disemboweled by jerkface holy men.

    The war between the Aztecs and the Tlaxcans lasted for twenty long days, as Tlahuicole held out against all odds in a brutal struggle for survival. He made quite a name for himself as a head-splitting asskicker, fighting with a pair of massive tomahawks so heavy that many men could not even lift them, and even as the Tlaxcan numbers began to dwindle, many Aztec warriors were so awed by Tlahuicole's physical powers of face-crushing that they refused to engage him in single combat. The Tlaxcan hero struck fear in the hearts of his enemies, cleaving through hordes of terrified warriors, but eventually, after all of his men were killed or mortally wounded, the mighty chieftain was overpowered by superior numbers and captured.

    Tlahuicole was bound in chains and dragged before the Aztec Emperor Montezuma. Montezuma, quite the badass in his own right (and an appreciator of all things badassery-related), had heard rumors of this unstoppable tomahawk-hucking warrior who had inflicted so much carnage on the battlefield, and decided to spare this brave soldier's life. Montezuma offered Tlahuicole his freedom, treasure, women, and a safe passage home.

    To everyone's surprise, Tlahuicole refused. He knew that it was Aztec custom to sacrifice prisoners of war to the sun god, and for the disgrace of losing the battle and allowing himself to be captured, the Tlaxcan's sense of honor demanded that he suffer the appropriate consequences.

    Montezuma obviously thought this was completely fucking insane, so instead of sacrificing Tlahuicole, he co-opted his skills into the Aztec army, ordering this man to serve as a war-chief in an already-ongoing struggle against a rival tribe known as the Tarascans. Tlahuicole, being a dutiful soldier, obeyed the order and assumed command of a large contingent of Aztec warriors on the battlefield.

    Well, Tlahuicole was pretty much awesome, and he of course pummeled the fail out of the Tarascans in combat, defeating them out of hand and sending their warriors running back home to their mommas with their entrails hanging out all willy-nilly. Tlahuicole's divisions returned to Tenochtitlan in triumph, bearing large amounts of wealth, slaves, and human sacrifices. Montezuma was so pumped up that he offered to make Tlahuicole an official member of the Aztec nobility, but the Tlaxcan vehemently refused, saying that by becoming an Aztec citizen he would be betraying his people. He once again turned down an opportunity for freedom, and begged Montezuma to allow him to die and end his miserable life of suffering and dishonor.

    Montezuma pretty much figured that there was nothing he could do to change this crazy war-mongering psycho's mind, so he offered Tlahuicole the opportunity to die the sort of badass warrior's death that would have made Odin Himself weep a single tear. Rather than sacrifice Tlahuicole at the Temple of Huitzilopochtli, Montezuma chained the warrior-chieftain to the Stone of Combat, stripped him of his armor, gave him an ordinary obsidian-studded war club, and pitted him against an endless onslaught of the greatest warriors of the Aztec Empire.

    (If it helps you to understand Tlahuicole's motivation for wishing for death before dishonor, you can think of this like the end of Half-Life, where the G-Man gives you the opportunity to either join him or fight a battle that you have no chance of winning. Tlahuicole chose the latter as a way of telling his captors to get fucked. Oh, um... spoiler alert, I guess)

    According to Aztec culture, this Trial of Sacrificial Combat was a way for captured soldiers to earn their freedom by displaying their worth as warriors. Men would be chained to the stone, and be set upon by a large group of seven powerful enemies. If the prisoner killed or wounded all of his assailants and survived the combat, he was set free. Well, obviously Tlahuicole wasn't going to take the easy way out – in his mind, he had failed, and wasn't going to be satisfied until he had died a warrior's death, covered in the blood of his enemies, and going out in a pretty badass one-man blaze of glory. This battle was to the death.

    Surrounded by hardcore warriors wailing on him from every direction, Tlahuicole stood his ground like the neck-ripping shit-kicker that he was. Over the course of nearly an hour of non-stop hand-to-hand horde mode combat, Tlahuicole fought his epic last stand, killing eight of the Aztec Empire's most powerful and skilled Jaguar Knights and wounding over twenty more. He finally fell to his knees, fighting like a madman, before succumbing to a ridiculous number of seriously gnarly mortal wounds. As he lay there dying a painful death, an Aztec priest approached, exalted the name of this brave warrior, and ritualistically sacrificed him on the spot.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominiguevo View Post
    OMG, that's so sad. but they were royal to the spanish no? they deserved more that rather than going extinct.
    Lets us remember that, besides to what Brvado points out, The Small Pox epidemy also affected the Tlaxcalan nation as many others more, Small pox didnt know about loyalties nor alliances.

    The Battle of San Pasqual was a military encounter that occurred during the Mexican-American War in what is now the San Pasqual Valley community of the city of San Diego, California. On December 6 and December 7, 1846, the Californios, and their Presidial Lancers, led by General Don Andres Pico, (1810-1876), defeated Stephen W. Kearny´s US Army column of 150 men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armand_Duval View Post
    Lets us remember that, besides to what Brvado points out, The Small Pox epidemy also affected the Tlaxcalan nation as many others more, Small pox didnt know about loyalties nor alliances.
    Indeed. If I remember correctly it was a black slave who propagated it (?).

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