Page 1 of 12 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 114

Thread: Scots voting no to independence would be an astonishing act of self-harm

  1. #1
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Last Online
    12-07-2014 @ 09:28 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ethnicity
    ....
    Ancestry
    Deutschland über alles
    Country
    European Union
    Politics
    anti-something
    Age
    48
    Gender
    Posts
    7,665
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 2,889
    Given: 1,747

    3 Not allowed!

    Default Scots voting no to independence would be an astonishing act of self-harm

    England is dysfunctional, corrupt and vastly unequal. Who on earth would want to be tied to such a country?







    Alex Salmond (R) first minister of Scotland and Alistair Darling chair of Better Together. ‘To vote no is to choose to live under a political system that sustains one of the rich world’s highest levels of inequality and deprivation.’ Photograph: Jeff J Mitchell/Getty




    Imagine the question posed the other way round. An independent nation is asked to decide whether to surrender its sovereignty to a larger union. It would be allowed a measure of autonomy, but key aspects of its governance would be handed to another nation. It would be used as a military base by the dominant power and yoked to an economy over which it had no control.


    It would have to be bloody desperate. Only a nation in which the institutions of governance had collapsed, which had been ruined economically, which was threatened by invasion or civil war or famine might contemplate this drastic step. Most nations faced even with such catastrophes choose to retain their independence – in fact, will fight to preserve it – rather than surrender to a dominant foreign power.


    So what would you say about a country that sacrificed its sovereignty without collapse or compulsion; that had no obvious enemies, a basically sound economy and a broadly functional democracy, yet chose to swap it for remote governance by the hereditary elite of another nation, beholden to a corrupt financial centre?


    What would you say about a country that exchanged an economy based on enterprise and distribution for one based on speculation and rent? That chose obeisance to a government that spies on its own citizens, uses the planet as its dustbin, governs on behalf of a transnational elite that owes loyalty to no nation, cedes public services to corporations, forces terminally ill people to work and can’t be trusted with a box of fireworks, let alone a fleet of nuclear submarines? You would conclude that it had lost its senses.


    So what’s the difference? How is the argument altered by the fact that Scotland is considering whether to gain independence rather than whether to lose it? It’s not. Those who would vote no – now, a new poll suggests, a rapidly diminishing majority – could be suffering from system justification.


    System justification is defined as the “process by which existing social arrangements are legitimised, even at the expense of personal and group interest”. It consists of a desire to defend the status quo, regardless of its impacts. It has been demonstrated in a large body of experimental work, which has produced the following surprising results.


    System justification becomes stronger when social and economic inequality is more extreme. This is because people try to rationalise their disadvantage by seeking legitimate reasons for their position. In some cases disadvantaged people are more likely than the privileged to support the status quo. One study found that US citizens on low incomes were more likely than those on high incomes to believe that economic inequality is legitimate and necessary.


    It explains why women in experimental studies pay themselves less than men, why people in low-status jobs believe their work is worth less than those in high-status jobs, even when they’re performing the same task, and why people accept domination by another group. It might help to explain why so many people in Scotland are inclined to vote no.


    The fears the no campaigners have worked so hard to stoke are – by comparison with what the Scots are being asked to lose – mere shadows. As Adam Ramsay points out in his treatise Forty-Two Reasons to Support Scottish Independence, there are plenty of nations smaller than Scotland that possess their own currencies and thrive. Most of the world’s prosperous nations are small: there are no inherent disadvantages to downsizing.


    Remaining in the UK carries as much risk and uncertainty as leaving. England’s housing bubble could blow at any time. We might leave the European Union. Some of the most determined no campaigners would take us out: witness Ukip’s intention to stage a “pro-union rally” in Glasgow on 12 September. The union in question, of course, is the UK, not Europe. This reminds us of a crashing contradiction in the politics of such groups: if our membership of the EU represents an appalling and intolerable loss of sovereignty, why is the far greater loss Scotland is being asked to accept deemed tolerable and necessary.


    The Scots are told they will have no control over their own currency if they leave the UK. But they have none today. The monetary policy committee is based in London and bows to the banks. The pound’s strength, which damages the manufacturing Scotland seeks to promote, reflects the interests of the City.


    To vote no is to choose to live under a political system that sustains one of the rich world’s highest levels of inequality and deprivation. This is a system in which all major parties are complicit, which offers no obvious exit from a model that privileges neoliberal economics over other aspirations. It treats the natural world, civic life, equality, public health and effective public services as dispensable luxuries, and the freedom of the rich to exploit the poor as non-negotiable.


    Its lack of a codified constitution permits numberless abuses of power. It has failed to reform the House of Lords, royal prerogative, campaign finance and first-past-the-post voting (another triumph for the no brigade). It is dominated by media owned by tax exiles, who, instructing their editors from their distant chateaux, play the patriotism card at every opportunity. The concerns of swing voters in marginal constituencies outweigh those of the majority; the concerns of corporations with no lasting stake in the country outweigh everything. Broken, corrupt, dysfunctional, retentive: you want to be part of this?


    Independence, as more Scots are beginning to see, offers people an opportunity to rewrite the political rules. To create a written constitution, the very process of which is engaging and transformative. To build an economy of benefit to everyone. To promote cohesion, social justice, the defence of the living planet and an end to wars of choice.


    To deny this to yourself, to remain subject to the whims of a distant and uncaring elite, to succumb to the bleak, deferential negativity of the no campaign, to accept other people’s myths in place of your own story: that would be an astonishing act of self-repudiation and self-harm. Consider yourselves independent and work backwards from there; then ask why you would sacrifice that freedom.






    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...gland-scotland
    R.I.P Joan Rivers

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Neon Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Last Online
    05-26-2023 @ 09:10 PM
    Ethnicity
    Britannic
    Country
    Great Britain
    Region
    England
    Gender
    Posts
    4,251
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 4,797
    Given: 5,979

    1 Not allowed!

    Default

    A lot of good points but England and Scotland have been together for over 300 years and, during that time, strong historical and cultural bonds have formed, especially under the pressure of the two world wars. If people feel they are one nation then they are. We'll see.

  3. #3
    Halo
    Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    RandoBloom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Online
    12-19-2019 @ 02:42 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Avar
    Ethnicity
    Avar
    Country
    Bulgaria
    Region
    Isle of Man
    Gender
    Posts
    9,846
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 4,084
    Given: 223

    1 Not allowed!

    Default

    Scotland should be independent. Its up to scots to decide, but staying in Britain will not preserve their identity.
    Hi everyone!

  4. #4
    Like Longbowman, but white Rudel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Last Online
    08-24-2021 @ 03:49 PM
    Ethnicity
    Français
    Country
    France
    Region
    Limousin
    Y-DNA
    I-Z58
    mtDNA
    T2b
    Age
    31
    Gender
    Posts
    4,382
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 8,037
    Given: 1,861

    5 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrulj View Post
    but staying in Britain will not preserve their identity.
    Unless they split Earth's crust, Scotland will always be in Britain.

  5. #5
    Слава Путину! Я люблю Россию. Z
    Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    ♥ Lily ♥'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Last Online
    Yesterday @ 07:20 AM
    Location
    From Dorset, but live in the City of Westminster (Central London)
    Ethnicity
    Ancestry
    English, 1/8 Welsh, 1/16 Western Irish.
    Country
    Great Britain
    Region
    England
    Politics
    Russophile. Brexiteer. Avoidance of WW3 and Nuclear War. Anti NATO. Anti WEF. Against Russophobia.
    Hero
    President Putin (creator of a rising multipolar world.) Viktor Orbán, George Galloway
    Gender
    Posts
    33,617
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 25,561
    Given: 27,897

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    The article links below explains what will happen with the Queen who will still be Queen of Scotland, what currency Scotland will have (nobody knows the solution to this problem), border control and other questions answered if Scotland and England divorce.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...votes-yes.html
    http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/if-scotlan...ll-happen-next
    http://www.cityam.com/1406114381/sco...ebar-most-read

    I don't think the likes of Scottish Gordon Brown, David Cameron, Tony Blair types from Scotland will be able to govern England anymore. Nor the former Scottish mayor of London, Ken Livingstone. England will be governed more by English politicians in Westminster instead... but that said, we're still an EU state and controlled mostly by the parliament of Brussels. But UKIP topped the elections this year showing the English want to become an independent nation, instead of an EU controlled 'state' of Europe.
    ❀♫ ღ ♬ ♪ And the angle of the sun changed it all. ❀¸.•*¨♥✿ 🎶



  6. #6
    Слава Путину! Я люблю Россию. Z
    Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    ♥ Lily ♥'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Last Online
    Yesterday @ 07:20 AM
    Location
    From Dorset, but live in the City of Westminster (Central London)
    Ethnicity
    Ancestry
    English, 1/8 Welsh, 1/16 Western Irish.
    Country
    Great Britain
    Region
    England
    Politics
    Russophile. Brexiteer. Avoidance of WW3 and Nuclear War. Anti NATO. Anti WEF. Against Russophobia.
    Hero
    President Putin (creator of a rising multipolar world.) Viktor Orbán, George Galloway
    Gender
    Posts
    33,617
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 25,561
    Given: 27,897

    1 Not allowed!

    Default

    Scottish Independence just isn't on offer with Alex Salmond who wants to sell Scotland out to the EU control, like Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party (UKIP) keeps pointing out! It's impossible for Scotland to be independent AND an EU controlled state. We're already controlled by Brussels in the UK, so what difference will it make if Scotland becomes and EU controlled state.

    The EU is part of a big government with an unelected president on a salary bigger than Obama who is making the laws for 500 million Europeans and bankrupting the EU states, removing democratically elected leaders in EU states (like in Italy and Greece) and installing puppet-governments, ignored the Irish No vote to the Lisbon Treaty signing, causing austerity and riots across southern Europe, turning every EU state of Europe into Islam, and erasing nations sovereignty and democracy.

    The EU plans in the long-term for one EU government, one EU flag, one EU passport, one EU language, one EU military, one EU currency.... it's already in motion and it's run by former communist party leaders (like Barrosso of the Portuguese Communist Party) and bankers like Herman van Rompuy. It's like the former Soviet Union or a 4th reich, except this dictatorship is turning Europe into the United States of Islam (Eurabia).

    EU = big government control and part of a New World Order, just like the NAU (North American Union planned for Mexico, US and Canada).
    ❀♫ ღ ♬ ♪ And the angle of the sun changed it all. ❀¸.•*¨♥✿ 🎶



  7. #7
    Слава Путину! Я люблю Россию. Z
    Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    ♥ Lily ♥'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Last Online
    Yesterday @ 07:20 AM
    Location
    From Dorset, but live in the City of Westminster (Central London)
    Ethnicity
    Ancestry
    English, 1/8 Welsh, 1/16 Western Irish.
    Country
    Great Britain
    Region
    England
    Politics
    Russophile. Brexiteer. Avoidance of WW3 and Nuclear War. Anti NATO. Anti WEF. Against Russophobia.
    Hero
    President Putin (creator of a rising multipolar world.) Viktor Orbán, George Galloway
    Gender
    Posts
    33,617
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 25,561
    Given: 27,897

    1 Not allowed!

    Default

    Scotland should look at Norway, Iceland and Switzerland - real independent nations who aren't governed by the EUSSR.

    Why can't Scotland be an independent NATION and not an EU governed 'state'?

    The EU President talks about global government and admits the New World Order is here.


    Scottish Independence is totally impossible if they remain in the EU.
    ❀♫ ღ ♬ ♪ And the angle of the sun changed it all. ❀¸.•*¨♥✿ 🎶



  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Last Online
    09-20-2014 @ 10:42 PM
    Location
    Covesea Cave
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Pecht
    Ethnicity
    Vacomagi
    Country
    Venezuela
    Region
    Nunavut
    Religion
    Bull cult
    Gender
    Posts
    290
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 247
    Given: 134

    2 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by English Rose View Post
    Scotland should look at Norway, Iceland and Switzerland - real independent nations who aren't governed by the EUSSR.
    Are you going to dig up every thread on the topic and flood it with your crap? Your UKIP ilk would still be against independence regardless of whether or not Scotland wanted to join the EU. It's just a pretense you're using because you've run out of arguments.

    Let's be candid here. I know your type. Scottish independence doesn't appeal to your nationalist vanity, so you're against it. You keep repeating these things like "50% of Scotland is on welfare". If that's the case, why are you going through every thread on the subject and throwing a temper tantrum? Don't you want to be free of that Scottish "burden"?

    You see how little sense it makes? You're powerless and hypocritical. People like you only increase the number of those who will vote yes.
    Last edited by Eileanach; 09-12-2014 at 07:25 AM.

  9. #9
    Alma portuguesa Damiăo de Góis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Last Online
    04-03-2024 @ 09:57 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Romance
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese
    Country
    Portugal
    Y-DNA
    R1b-DF27
    mtDNA
    J1c1
    Gender
    Posts
    22,320
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 13,747
    Given: 3,217

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by English Rose View Post
    it's run by former communist party leaders (like Barrosso of the Portuguese Communist Party)
    He's of a portuguese center-right party. Not a communist.
    The communist party here doesn't get that many votes.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member
    Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"


    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Wildling
    Ancestry
    Cumbria, Scotland, Northumberland, Shetland
    Country
    Scotland
    Y-DNA
    R-L21*
    mtDNA
    K1C2a
    Gender
    Posts
    21,609
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 19,711
    Given: 5,851

    2 Not allowed!

    Default

    English Rose I hope that you know, the free trade and people can still apply to non EU members like Norway & Iceland. Being out of the EU doesn't mean that you are out of the forrest. You could still be in the European Economic Area.

    And that the NWO is mostly linked to your city of London than to the EU.

Page 1 of 12 1234511 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Scottish independence: what young Scots want
    By Graham in forum Alba | Scotland
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-11-2014, 12:06 PM
  2. Sardinia voting on independence
    By Yaroslav in forum Italy - English Entries
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-08-2014, 01:54 PM
  3. Why the Scots MUST vote for independence! Daily Mail
    By Graham in forum United Kingdom
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-19-2013, 10:48 PM
  4. Most Scots not enthusiastic for independence
    By Beorn in forum Alba | Scotland
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 06-15-2010, 08:46 PM
  5. Energy revenue 'not enough to fund Scots independence'
    By Beorn in forum Alba | Scotland
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-11-2010, 01:04 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •