Is it time for Gibraltar to Expand Its Territory?

[Gaston]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagie_Islands

Sicily disputes your logic.

Sure but periodically uninhabited islands aren't centers of Western civilization. It's not comparable to the ancient city of Ceuta.


Back to topic, the UK has many fiscal paradises which I naturally despise. For this reason (among others), I think Spain should get Gibraltar back, France Jersey and Guenesey etc.

[Empecinado]

I have nothing against Gibraltar going back to Spain
But seeing how two-faced you are I prefer to keep it in safe hands.
Especialy when you mention that the population is foreign and have no say in anything.
I shudder to think what you would do to those poor inhabitants, probably burn them at the stake

I have shown many times that Gibraltar is not Ceuta/Melilla, and no one consider it to be the same, only Moors. And that population is foreign and have no say is what UNO says too, just lik Pied Noirs had no voice in the independence of French North Africa and had to leave.

And don't project your Muslim-tribal genocide cravings to civilized people.

[RandoBloom]

I have shown many times that Gibraltar is not Ceuta/Melilla, and no one consider it to be the same, only Moors. And that population is foreign and have no say is what UNO says too, just lik Pied Noirs had no voice in the independence of French North Africa and had to leave.

And don't project your Muslim-tribal genocide cravings to civilized people.

Civilized people would respect the will of Gibraltarians and give more Land to Britain to expand Gibraltar

[Ctwentysevenj]

Glad we're in agreement for once. How large do you think we should expand the territory to become? Perhaps we could purchase it from the Spaniards? I hear real estate in Spain is dirt cheap.

Maybe buy all of Spain!

[Ülev]

bump

[Longbowman]

Obviously the answer is 'no' but you can't care about territorial sovereignty/historic ownership AND self-determination equally. If you prioritise self-determination, as the UK clearly does in all cases, even to its own detriment (for example, Scottish independence referendum) then obviously Gibraltar should remain a British overseas territory, or 'colony' if you prefer, regardless of what the UN says (and really, people only care what the UN says when the UN happens to agree with them).*

If you care about historic ownership then regardless of how fucked up Morocco is, Spain should give it Ceuta and Melilla, which btw it has only held for about 400 years, and also the Canary Islands (idem). The UK is more developed than Spain, should we not give them Gibraltar for that reason alone? Besides, by this point in history, we've owned Gibraltar longer than the Castillians ever did.

Interesting to see Spanish members dismiss the point about Gibraltarian pro-Britishness whilst touting Ceutan and Melillan pro-Spanishness. A lot of inconsistencies on this point.

*BTW this point could be resolved by making the territories integral parts of the UK ... which we haven't done at least partially because the locals don't want it done.

[gixajo]

Obviously the answer is 'no' but you can't care about territorial sovereignty/historic ownership AND self-determination equally. If you prioritise self-determination, as the UK clearly does in all cases, even to its own detriment (for example, Scottish independence referendum) then obviously Gibraltar should remain a British overseas territory, or 'colony' if you prefer, regardless of what the UN says (and really, people only care what the UN says when the UN happens to agree with them).*

If you care about historic ownership then regardless of how fucked up Morocco is, Spain should give it Ceuta and Melilla, which btw it has only held for about 400 years, and also the Canary Islands (idem). The UK is more developed than Spain, should we not give them Gibraltar for that reason alone? Besides, by this point in history, we've owned Gibraltar longer than the Castillians ever did.

Interesting to see Spanish members dismiss the point about Gibraltarian pro-Britishness whilst touting Ceutan and Melillan pro-Spanishness. A lot of inconsistencies on this point.

*BTW this point could be resolved by making the territories integral parts of the UK ... which we haven't done at least partially because the locals don't want it done.

I was about to point out some inconsistencies from your opinion and British position in that issue, but it isn't worth it to start unnecessarily any discussion, because I have read and heard already the British point of view.

As soon as a British starts talking about Gibraltar he becomes a Russian talking about Crimea.

So ,enjoy Gibraltar.

[Longbowman]

I was about to point out some inconsistencies from your opinion and British position in that issue, but it isn't worth it to start unnecessarily any discussion, because I have read and heard already the British point of view.

As soon as a British starts talking about Gibraltar he becomes a Russian talking about Crimea.

So ,enjoy Gibraltar.

I'm sure there are many inconsistent British opinions on the matter, but not on my part. If you're going to call me out for inconsistency, please highlight the inconsistencies so I can either rectify or clarify. When I pointed out Spanish inconsistencies, without naming names, I specified what I was talking about. If you don't think it's worth your time to point out my supposed ones, perhaps you shouldn't have bothered commenting at all?

BTW Crimea should belong to Russia, although the way it happened was deeply immoral and a violation of several treaties Russia and Ukraine signed only 25 years ago - Russia should care more about its honour. The majority of Crimeans clearly want to be part of Russia (although not 97% or whatever ridiculous number that referendum indicated) and the majority of Russians clearly agree so it should pertain to Russia. On the other hand we captured Gibraltar fair and square in 1704 in an open war and this was ratified in Utrecht by you in 1713.

Of course lots of people are inconsistent on this issue:

If you're Spanish you oppose self-determination for Catalonia, Scotland, Gibraltar, Crimea and Kosovo, but support it for Ceuta and Melilla
If you're British you support self-determination for Catalonia, Scotland, Gibraltar, Kosovo, Ceuta and Melilla, but oppose it for Crimea
If you're Russian you support self-determination for Catalonia, Scotland, Gibraltar, Crimea, Ceuta and Melilla, but oppose it for Kosovo

One might almost pick up on a pattern.

[gixajo]

I'm sure there are many inconsistent British opinions on the matter, but not on my part. If you're going to call me out for inconsistency, please highlight the inconsistencies so I can either rectify or clarify. When I pointed out Spanish inconsistencies, without naming names, I specified what I was talking about. If you don't think it's worth your time to point out my supposed ones, perhaps you shouldn't have bothered commenting at all?

BTW Crimea should belong to Russia, although the way it happened was deeply immoral and a violation of several treaties Russia and Ukraine signed only 25 years ago - Russia should care more about its honour. The majority of Crimeans clearly want to be part of Russia (although not 97% or whatever ridiculous number that referendum indicated) and the majority of Russians clearly agree so it should pertain to Russia.

Of course lots of people are inconsistent on this issue:

If you're Spanish you oppose self-determination for Catalonia, Scotland, Gibraltar, Crimea and Kosovo, but support it for Ceuta and Melilla
If you're British you support self-determination for Catalonia, Scotland, Gibraltar, Kosovo, Ceuta and Melilla, but oppose it for Crimea
If you're Russian you support self-determination for Catalonia, Scotland, Gibraltar, Crimea, Ceuta and Melilla, but oppose it for Kosovo

One might almost pick up on a pattern.

You are comparing different things. If we talk about Gibraltar, we must take about Gibraltar.

Surely you know about what "whataboutism" is.

[gixajo]

I'm sure there are many inconsistent British opinions on the matter, but not on my part. If you're going to call me out for inconsistency, please highlight the inconsistencies so I can either rectify or clarify. When I pointed out Spanish inconsistencies, without naming names, I specified what I was talking about. If you don't think it's worth your time to point out my supposed ones, perhaps you shouldn't have bothered commenting at all?

BTW Crimea should belong to Russia, although the way it happened was deeply immoral and a violation of several treaties Russia and Ukraine signed only 25 years ago - Russia should care more about its honour. The majority of Crimeans clearly want to be part of Russia (although not 97% or whatever ridiculous number that referendum indicated) and the majority of Russians clearly agree so it should pertain to Russia.

Of course lots of people are inconsistent on this issue:

If you're Spanish you oppose self-determination for Catalonia, Scotland, Gibraltar, Crimea and Kosovo, but support it for Ceuta and Melilla
If you're British you support self-determination for Catalonia, Scotland, Gibraltar, Kosovo, Ceuta and Melilla, but oppose it for Crimea
If you're Russian you support self-determination for Catalonia, Scotland, Gibraltar, Crimea, Ceuta and Melilla, but oppose it for Kosovo

One might almost pick up on a pattern.

You are comparing different things. If we talk about Gibraltar, we must talk about Gibraltar.

Surely you know about what "whataboutism" is.

Edit:sorry, i am with the usual database error.