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Thread: Spanish court suspends Catalonia independence vote

  1. #11
    My Countship is not of this world Comte Arnau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    Obviously you don't keep up with the news.
    I do. That is why what you say is so clearly a conjecture. No government or institution is going to take an official position before the event itself has taken place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    No, it's a basic understanding of monetary economics.
    When so many economists have different stances on this, often contradictory, and the wisest end up saying that everything is possible, well, your "basic understanding" of economics is basically irrelevant to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    If you didn't care you wouldn't be responding to me. And I love all Spaniards. If Catalans want to have their own nation, that is fine with me. But don't use dishonesty to push an agenda.
    Catalans have been a nation for centuries. What we nowadays have not, yet, is a sovereign country in which to simply live fully as what we are, Catalans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    That's from a man with no axe to grind. You can have your independence (if that's what the people want) but don't base it on a myth
    Why not? Why should we be different from the rest? Every nation has its own myths and its own vision of History.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    and try to learn a thing or two about economics.
    Sure, one day I might even dare reach your 'basic understanding' of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    you're basically saying you don't want to pay but that just means someone else is stuck with it.
    I'm only saying that if there are no agreements, there is no shared debt. So it'd actually be better for both parts to eventually reach one.
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comte Arnau View Post
    I do. That is why what you say is so clearly a conjecture. No government or institution is going to take an official position before the event itself has taken place.
    Sure you do.

    Viviane Reding, vice president of the European Commission, in February said that although "the Catalans are fervent Europeans," taking into account the rules of the EU, Catalonia "will be outside the European Union within seconds of the vote in favor of independence". Reding expressed respect for the Catalan desire for independence, but insisted that the process of returning to the Union "would not be quick", adding that she would regret "a Europe without Catalonia".
    http://www.euractiv.com/sections/eu-...n-issue-301921

    When so many economists have different stances on this, often contradictory, and the wisest end up saying that everything is possible, well, your "basic understanding" of economics is basically irrelevant to me.
    Can you name some of the relevant economists? Or is this a vague "economists say this and that" that doesn't really appeal to me. I like to look at credentials and reputation for successful predictions. I can find you an economist who says just about anything. And then there is the question of whether you understand what they're arguing.



    Catalans have been a nation for centuries. What we nowadays have not, yet, is a sovereign country in which to simply live fully as what we are, Catalans.
    No, they haven't. There has never been a nation state called Catalunya. There has been a Kingdom of Aragon, however, of which Catalunya was a region. But that is irrelevant to me with regards to independence. I have no issue with a group voting on independence regardless if they were once a nation.



    Why not? Why should we be different from the rest? Every nation has its own myths and its own vision of History.
    Because someone living in the 21st century should value honesty over false propaganda. A lie is never noble.


    Sure, one day I might even dare reach your 'basic understanding' of it.
    I doubt it but I'm sure you'll lie about it. It wouldn't be the first time I caught you lying.

    I'm only saying that if there are no agreements, there is no shared debt. So it'd actually be better for both parts to eventually reach one.
    I can't discuss something you don't understand.

  3. #13
    My Countship is not of this world Comte Arnau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    Sure you do.
    As I suspected, you're referring to personal declarations.There is no official written paper. Again, official positions, the ones that matter, will only take place after the event, not before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    Can you name some of the relevant economists? Or is this a vague "economists say this and that" that doesn't really appeal to me. I like to look at credentials and reputation for successful predictions. I can find you an economist who says just about anything. And then there is the question of whether you understand what they're arguing.
    If not for your last sentence, I would even have played your game and mentioned some of them. For a moment I even thought you were going to be able to maintain a proper debate. I overrated you again, my fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    No, they haven't. There has never been a nation state called Catalunya.
    Nation-states are a very recent thing and there are very few in Europe. Iceland and Portugal are good examples.

    The Catalans have existed as a politically articulated nation for more than eight centuries, and your misinformation can't change that fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    There has been a Kingdom of Aragon, however, of which Catalunya was a region.
    Wrong, once again. You're tiring.

    Catalonia has never been part of the Kingdom of Aragon, but of a Crown made by two founding distinct political entities: the Kingdom of Aragon AND the County of Barcelona. Each of the political entities had their own Courts, laws and customs and worked in a different way. They were subject to a King who by the way belonged to the House of Barcelona. In fact, it's not until two centuries after the dynastic union that it's called the Crown of Aragon for the first time, for simplification. The way the union was called in the beginning was Aragonum et Catalonie, and the dignity of the king was King of Aragon and Count of Barcelona. And he couldn't forget the second one at all.

    But well, this explanation is for others rather than for you. You'll just repeat what you've said again in a few days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    But that is irrelevant to me with regards to independence. I have no issue with a group voting on independence regardless if they were once a nation.
    All your opinions are totally irrelevant on the issue, that's true. Specially when you show such poor knowledge on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    I doubt it but I'm sure you'll lie about it. It wouldn't be the first time I caught you lying.
    More arrogant babble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    I can't discuss something you don't understand.
    You simply can't discuss.
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

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    Can't say I feel any regret for the Catalufos, a people deeply impregned by XX Century quasi-Communist republicanism.

    Plus, need stronger states in Southern Europe for the future.

  5. #15
    My Countship is not of this world Comte Arnau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ars Moriendi View Post
    Can't say I feel any regret for the Catalufos
    As if your feelings mattered. Specially when you need to use a slur to feel someone.
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Comte Arnau View Post
    As if your feelings mattered. Specially when you need to use a slur to feel someone.
    Neither do yours. This is just a discussion board.

  7. #17
    Todos contra nos Y nos contra todos Empecinado's Avatar
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    Catalan separatist process is a typical case of demonstrations planned to destabilize countries. Consider that at present the payment of interest on Spanish debt has eaten almost all the cuts made by the government. And it is possible that given the high indebtedness with Spain, Italy and Greece, the governments of these countries may be tempted in the future to repudiate at least part of its public debt. But if this were to occur, it would be a blow to the City of London and its network of tax havens located in British Overseas Territories. For this reason, the "process" of Catalan independence is nothing but a veiled threat to the Spanish government to not deviate from the path they have marked. I think the powers that control the West NEVER will accept an independent Catalonia, because if that were to occur, would be bankrupt both Catalonia and the rest of Spain, with consequent non-payment of debt.

    How we should react then on this referendum? Well, with serenity and silence. I think Spain will emerge stronger after this. The regions with greater presence of ideologies associated to the "New World Order" are precisely Catalonia and the Basque Country. The latter region has entered a phase of irreversible decline in economic and demographic fields. And the "Catalan process" will also entail the decline of Catalonia, because this region has become a sort of no man's land where many people don't know what will happen, which is severely penalizing foreign investment and obviously will end up affecting the entire economy.

    The dogs who organize this would like we Spaniards kill between ourselves, and we must not allow a Maidan happens in Spain. Simply ignore the Catalan separatists, they won't have the balls to move on.

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    This is reminiscent of Franco's oppressive behaviour, an insult to democracy and an abuse on the basic human rights to vote.

    Catalonia and the Basque Country both have the potential to be wealthy nations despite being small... look at Andorra;- a small Catalan speaking nation between France and Spain, which is one of the richest and more peaceful nations in Europe with very low crime rates.
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  9. #19
    My Countship is not of this world Comte Arnau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empecinado View Post
    Simply ignore the Catalan separatists, they won't have the balls to move on.
    Moving backwards now would be riskier. If we do, even I'll become a Catalan hater.

    Quote Originally Posted by English Rose View Post
    Catalonia and the Basque Country both have the potential to be wealthy nations despite being small... look at Andorra;- a small Catalan speaking nation between France and Spain, which is one of the richest and more peaceful nations in Europe with very low crime rates.
    Andorra is a microstate, though. Catalonia's size is quite different, larger than Belgium, with a larger population than Serbia or most Scandinavian countries and ranking high on GDP. Not that small on a European scale.
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

  10. #20
    Like Longbowman, but white Rudel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comte Arnau View Post
    Democracy in Spain = The verdict of 12 biased judges prevails over the agreement of a Parliament elected by people and decides the political future of a whole folk.

    Separation of powers = Concept not found yet in the last edition of the Dictionary.
    Sounds like a country I might start to like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    EU won't accept an independent Catalunya
    You're not very familiar with this continent, are you ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ringelnatter View Post
    Europeans should support it, everyone knows that now is the time for mini-states on the west, since its already done to the east.
    Because the original experience of balkanisation succeeded so well.

    Quote Originally Posted by English Rose View Post
    Catalonia and the Basque Country both have the potential to be wealthy nations despite being small... look at Andorra;- a small Catalan speaking nation between France and Spain, which is one of the richest and more peaceful nations in Europe with very low crime rates.
    Andorra is only successful because it's using its position to leach off the neighbouring states (who have de facto sovereignty over it anyway). But it was never prosperous before a few decades ago, and its model is certainly not extendible to Catalonia were it sovereign.

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