Historians allege Dresden deathtoll "exaggerated"

[Cato]

The official numbers are sugar-coated and estimated by scientists of the system, in other words leftist-liberal and in case of doubt against German interests. My trust is on authentic and politically neutral scientists, former numbers and eyewitnesses. The real number of victims is somewhere between 75.000 and 150.000. To suggest that only 18.000 people were killed is sheer cynicism and sires of an anti German basic attitude.

At least 100,000 from what I've been able to tell, making Dresden a a very huge calamity, right behind two cities named Hiroshima and Nagasakhi.

[Fortis in Arduis]

The timing of this earth-shattering historical revelation really is impeccable with Ernst Zündel's very recent release from prison. For those of you living on the moon for the last 30 or so years, he's that guy that has been battling both Canada and Germany's legal system for years and was finally thrown in jail for questioning whether the deathtoll at Auschwitz and elsewhere was exaggerated for political ends.

Somehow, I doubt the revisionism of this already-downplayed massacre will end up in court. The degree of "chutzpah" on display is simply amazing.

I do not identify a Zionist agenda here.

You might find a crypto-this or that, because that is what most zealots want to find, but the enemy is international capitalism and socialism, not Zionism, which is simply a broad-spectrum political and also religious movement for the establishment of a Jewish homeland in biblical Israel.

Chutzpah is not the sole preserve of the Jewish people.

Britain and Britons have enough chutzpah for everyone to share.

They did bomb British cities though - London, Birmingham, Coventry and all the others - which you failed to mention. Every British city bears the scars, even today. The destruction of Dresden was perfectly justified, because it was the Germans themselves who were savages, and needed to be utterly destroyed in order to be defeated (since they hadn't accepted defeat in 1918). I don't give a shit about German sensibilities. In 1945 it would have been perfectly justifiable for the allies to throw every stinking German into the gas ovens they had made for the Jews. But we were too nice for that.

So, you are an apologist for capitalist war-crimes and ethnocides.



The diminutive figures for British and Commonweath civilian casualties were dwarfed by those of ethnic Germans, not to mention the number of German-Jews and Poles who were abandoned by, or dismissed as unimportant by the capitalist stooges of American finance.

I think that we have to take a long look at ourselves before pointing the finger.

[Jarl]

To suggest that only 18.000 people were killed is sheer cynicism and sires of an anti German basic attitude.

But if this is truth:

Today's historians estimate a death toll between 24,000 and 40,000,[7] and an independent investigation commissioned by the city council in 2006 determined a minimum of 18,000 victims with a maximum total number of fatalities of around 25,000.[8][9][10]

Then who's claiming the toll was higher than 40,000? I mean... on what ground you assert that these numbers are "sheer cynism"? If you think that the German authorities themselves (city council) are inadequate to conduct a credible research, then there is pretty much noone you consider reliable. We might as well put the figure up to 40 mln.

Here, some internet amateurs claim it was an unbelievable 600, 000 ppl!


http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread...olumn-Of-Flame

At least 100,000 from what I've been able to tell, making Dresden a a very huge calamity, right behind two cities named Hiroshima and Nagasakhi.

Is this based on some factual data?


Dresden has a population of 650 000 in 1933. Then it decreased to 450 000 by 1946. However, most people got displaced since they lost their homes. Rotterdam Blitz officially took 1000 lives, but displaced or left homeless about 70 000 to 80 000 people. Thus, we got a net difference of 200, 000 citizens. Majority of which were most likely displaced.


I mean. German Blitz that lasted about a year took 40, 000 lives in London... So I would be careful when looking at the figures. Does anyone question the credibility of this:

e bombing of Dresden by the Royal Air Force and the United States Army Air Force between 13 February and 15 February 1945, remains one of the more controversial Allied actions of the Western European theatre of war. The inner city of Dresden was largely destroyed by 800 RAF and USAAF bombers that dropped 650,000 incendiaries and 8,000 pounds (3,600 kg) of high explosives and hundreds of 4,000 pounds (1,800 kg) bombs[13] in three waves of attacks. Early reports estimated 150,000 to 250,000 deaths but the German Dresden Historians' Commission in an official 2010 report published after five years of research concluded that there were up to 25,000 civilian casualties.[14]

...???

[Svanhild]

But if this is truth:

Today's historians estimate a death toll between 24,000 and 40,000,[7] and an independent investigation commissioned by the city council in 2006 determined a minimum of 18,000 victims with a maximum total number of fatalities of around 25,000.[8][9][10]

Then who's claiming the toll was higher than 40,000?

It's not the truth, it's a politically intended result. German rightwing activists often use Dresden as the master example of German bloodletting in WW2 hence the political mainstream has an interest to tone down the numbers of victims.

on what ground you assert that these numbers are "sheer cynism"?

On the ground of common sense. Gesunder Menschenverstand.

If you think that the German authorities themselves (city council) are inadequate to conduct a credible research, then there is pretty much noone you consider reliable.

Current German authorities are rotten and often act fully against the will of the people by purpose.

We might as well put the figure up to 40 mln.

Why do you want to turn every German issue into ridicule? You wouldn't do that if the topic was on Polish victim numbers. Can't you behave at least one single time?

Dresden has a population of 650 000 in 1933. Then it decreased to 450 000 by 1946. However, most people got displaced since they lost their homes.

By the time of the bombing raids Dresden was full of refugees of the eastern territories. A lot of them were unregistered and any halfway sane mind should come to the conclusion that it is impossible to come to a clear number of victims und such circumstances. Unregistered victims have no name and are often counted as missed and not as dead.

Eyewitnesses, natives to Dresden and former objective researchers, uninfluenced by political interests, confirmed that the bombings killed at least 75.000 to 150.000 people. Pardon my french, but I trust these people more than modern scientists who have a political agenda and weren't even alive when the bombings took place.

[antonio]

I suppose Germany has laws to jail all that minimize, justify or deny Dresde rutless bombing.

[Jarl]

Why do you want to turn every German issue into ridicule? You wouldn't do that if the topic was on Polish victim numbers. Can't you behave at least one single time?

Why do you always have to smell a rat in everything I say? I only wanted to ask about sources. To me "common sense" is not enough as it's by definition some personal subjective feeling based on our POV. It is therefore flawed by our emotions. Since this is an important subject I only wanted to see who comes up with figures higher than 18 000, or 40 000 and on what grounds - since the estimates always have to be based on some, even partial, evidence.

Eyewitnesses, natives to Dresden and former objective researchers, uninfluenced by political interests, confirmed that the bombings killed at least 75.000 to 150.000 people. Pardon my french, but I trust these people more than modern scientists who have a political agenda and weren't even alive when the bombings took place.

OK. Now you say "former objective researchers, uninfluenced by political interests"... I understand that since you are a German nationalist/patriot, and you despise the crimes conducted on Germans, you take the more preferable option and opt for higher numbers. This crime will remain a crime anyway. However, has it never crossed your mind that the former researches could have been less objective? Or politically biased? There is certainly a concrete technical reason why the Dresden historical comission came up with 18, 000, instead of 150 000. Do you know what that technical detail influencing the estimates is?




"

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Kurt Vonnegut was in Dresden when it was bombed in 1945, and wrote a famous anti-war novel, Slaughterhouse Five, in 1969. In February 1945, Vonnegut was witness to another pretty good imitation of Mt Vesuvius; the firebombing by Allied forces of Dresden, the town in eastern Germany, during the last months of the Second World War. More than 600,000 incen-diary bombs later, the city looked more like the surface of the moon. Returning home to India-napolis after the war, Vonnegut began writing short stories for magazines such as Collier's and The Saturday Evening Post, and, seven years later, published his first novel, Player Piano. ...
http://www.rense.com/general19/flame.htm

[Lulletje Rozewater]

I suppose Germany has laws to jail all that minimize, justify or deny Dresde rutless bombing.

Wish you were there.

[anonymaus]

Referring to the Bombing of Dresden as a war crime is already de rigeur among serious and educated people. The number won't change that.

[JMarcial]

Why when Jews rise the toll of the murdered in the KZs by the Germans it is a "jewish lie" but when the Germans rise the toll of the murdered in Dresden by the British it is not a "german lie"?

They aren't much different from each other starting at both claiming to be a chosen/superior people.