How much of R1a (what %) could there be in West Germany before WW2 ???

[Peterski]

On another forum I (Tomenable) had the following discussion:

And I think it deserves a thread on its own:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post444923

I would love to see East and West Germans sampled separately, to see Slavic influence on East Germany.

It would be also nice to distinguish between families which live in West Germany for many (e.g. 10+) generations and these which came recently.

For example in various lands of West Germany in year 1950 between ca. 5% and ca. 40% of people were recent eastern immigrants who came in 1944-1950.

Percent among the total population (by region), in 1950, of people who came to West Germany in 1944 - 1950 from eastern territories lost by Germany:

Schleswig-Holstein - 38,2%
Lower Saxony - 32,6%
Bavaria - 23,5%
Hessen - 20,3%
Wuerttemberg-Baden - 19,0%
North Rhine-Westphalia - 12,9%
City of Bremen - 12,4%
Wuerttemberg-Hohenzollern - 11,4%
City of Hamburg - 11,3%
Baden - 9,4%
Rheinland-Palatinate - 6,0%
Saarland - percent not given (probably very small?)

Add to this also Polish migrations to West Germany during the 19th and the 20th centuries (during the 19th century chiefly to the Ruhr area in Westphalia).

As well as German east-to-west internal migrations during the 19th century (Ostflucht) and 1950-present (emigration from Communist and post-Communist Germany).

All in all, I am very certain that vast majority of R1a haplogroup in West Germany today, is only the product of recent (19th - 20th centuries) migrations.

When people carry out genetic research they wonder "which ancient tribe could possibly bring this here?", and completely neglect VERY RECENT migrations...

[Not a Cop]

On another forum I (Tomenable) had the following discussion:

And I think it deserves a thread on its own:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post444923



It would be also nice to distinguish between families which live in West Germany for many (e.g. 10+) generations and these which came recently.

For example in various lands of West Germany in year 1950 between ca. 5% and ca. 40% of people were recent eastern immigrants who came in 1944-1950.

Percent among the total population (by region), in 1950, of people who came to West Germany in 1944 - 1950 from eastern territories lost by Germany:

Schleswig-Holstein - 38,2%
Lower Saxony - 32,6%
Bavaria - 23,5%
Hessen - 20,3%
Wuerttemberg-Baden - 19,0%
North Rhine-Westphalia - 12,9%
City of Bremen - 12,4%
Wuerttemberg-Hohenzollern - 11,4%
City of Hamburg - 11,3%
Baden - 9,4%
Rheinland-Palatinate - 6,0%
Saarland - percent not given (probably very small?)

Add to this also Polish migrations to West Germany during the 19th and the 20th centuries (during the 19th century chiefly to the Ruhr area in Westphalia).

As well as German east-to-west internal migrations during the 19th century (Ostflucht) and 1950-present (emigration from Communist and post-Communist Germany).

All in all, I am very certain that vast majority of R1a haplogroup in West Germany today, is only the product of recent (19th - 20th centuries) migrations.

When people carry out genetic research they wonder "which ancient tribe could possibly bring this here?", and completely neglect VERY RECENT migrations...

If we will take the fact that R1a spread from some are in Eastern Europe as a dogma when the route of R1a to Scandinavia most likely gone trough East and North Germany, also counting that Germans have absorbed some Slavic and Baltic populations during the ethnogenesis than we can assume that R1a should be higher in Germany than in Scandinavia.

Eupedia gives 16% for Germany as whole and 22 and 24 for Northern and Eastern parts. R1a has frequency of 15% and 16% in Denmark and Sweden and 25,5% in Norway.

Counting all this 9% (according to Eupedia) for West Germany seems pretty logical without any additional influences from the East.

But anyway when people try to estimate the haplogroup frequences they try to test locals without immigration background, not some random people.

[Peterski]

16% of R1a in Germany is almost certainly too low (due to a not geographically representative sample, I guess). This chart indicates that R1a in Germany is closer to +/- 20% (but there are significant regional differences in frequency):

http://s30.postimg.org/dueaa5s8h/Mes...rn_Germans.png



Chart is from a recent (2014) publication:

Lazaridis et. al., "Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans", September 2014:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13673.html

If we will take the fact that R1a spread from some are in Eastern Europe as a dogma when the route of R1a to Scandinavia most likely gone trough East and North Germany, also counting that Germans have absorbed some Slavic and Baltic populations during the ethnogenesis than we can assume that R1a should be higher in Germany than in Scandinavia.

By the same logic R1a should be higher in Ukraine and Belarus than in Poland, because Slavs came from the east. However, it is not the case - Poland has a higher percent of R1a than Ukraine-Belarus. Moreover - not all of Scandinavian R1a is "Germanic" (or Scandinavian) Z284. Some of Scandinavian R1a is Balto-Slavic.

On the other hand, in Germany Z284 is virtually absent, IIRC.

[Peterski]

The main problem with Eupedia's data for Northern Germany is that it includes North-Western Germany. In North-Eastern Germany (Mecklenburg-Vorpommern) R1a is about 35% or even more (about 35% is in the city of Rostock, buy I think that among inhabitants of villages and smaller towns it should very likely be higher), more than in the North-West.

In the city of Leipzig (not that far from Sorbian-speaking enclaves and from Czech border) R1a is about 30%.

But in the Austrian city of Graz, located near the Slovenian border, it is between 40% and 45% (so higher than among actual ethnic Slovenes of Slovenia). Graz - Gradec in Slovene Slavic language - used to be one of fortified urban centres of the Early Medieval Slavic Principality of Carantania (Carinthia).

==============

Here is Eupedia's division of Germany:

"Our division of Germany was made this way: North Germany includes the Schleswig-Holstein, Lower Saxony (+ Hamburg and Bremen) and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. West Germany is the Rhineland, Hesse and Saarland. South Germany is Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria. East Germany is composed of Brandenburg, Berlin, Saxony-Anhalt, Saxony and Thuringia."

[Peterski]

Counting all this 9% (according to Eupedia) for West Germany seems pretty logical without any additional influences from the East

Nope - it seems pretty illogical to claim that Germans who came to West Germany from former German territories in the east (like regions of modern Poland - Pomerania, Prussia, Silesia - or the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia, etc., etc.) did not have a much higher percent of R1a among them, than "original" West Germans. I have seen data from the Silesian German descendants DNA project and if I recall correctly Germans from Silesia had over 40% of R1a. There is also the East Prussian German DNA project and it shows also a very significant percent of R1a as well as N1c among descendants of those Germans.

[TheForeigner]

Where does the high R1A come from in Scandinavians?

[Rugevit]

By the same logic R1a should be higher in Ukraine and Belarus than in Poland, because Slavs came from the east. However, it is not the case - Poland has a higher percent of R1a than Ukraine-Belarus.

This is most up to date study on R1a in more than 100 countries by Underhill et al 2014. See table S4 : http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201450x5.xls


Poland - 45.9%
Belarus - 54.7%
Ukraine between 43% - 49.7 depending on the region.
Russia between 30% - 59.7% depending the region.

[Peterski]

All other studies I have seen say that there is more than 50% of R1a in Poland (usually 54-57%). Where did Underhill take his sample from? Because in some areas of Poland R1a is indeed below 1/2 - especially regions resettled largely by Poles from what is now Ukraine-Lithuania-Belarus after WW2 (local Germans were deported westward; and Poles deported from former Eastern Poland came).

I've seen studies of Polish HGs which take their samples from... one city! This method of taking samples can be only described as utter ignorance. I have also seen a study of autosomal DNA which took its Polish sample from... Szczecin! If you take samples from Szczecin, you are probably testing DNA of Lithuanian Poles!

Geneticists should have some knowledge on history of recent migrations.

[Rugevit]

All other studies I have seen say that there is more than 50% of R1a in Poland (usually 54-57%). Where did Underhill take his sample from ??? Because in some areas of Poland R1a is indeed below 1/2 - especially regions resettled largely by Poles from what is now Ukraine and Lithuania after WW2 (local Germans were deported westward; and Poles deported from former Eastern Poland came).

I have seen studies of Polish HGs which take their samples from... one city!

This method of taking samples can be only described as utter ignorance.

Ignorance is not reading the article and not knowing that Underhill et al (30+ researchers) are current authorities on R1a haplogroup.

Sample for Polish population may had been taken from one of this studies, which are listed at the bottom of the table. Some samples are much larger in comparison to samples of several older studies I've seen.

Spoiler!

1. Underhill PA, Myres NM, Rootsi S et al: Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a. Eur J Hum Genet 2010; 18: 479-484.
2. Kushniarevich A, Sivitskaya L, Danilenko N et al: Uniparental Genetic Heritage of Belarusians: Encounter of Rare Middle Eastern Matrilineages with a Central European Mitochondrial DNA Pool. PLoS One 2013; 8.
3. Karachanak S, Grugni V, Fornarino S et al: Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry. PLoS One 2013; 8.
4. King RJ, Ozcan SS, Carter T et al: Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic. Ann Hum Genet 2008; 72: 205-214.
5. Martinez L, Underhill PA, Zhivotovsky LA et al: Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau. Eur J Hum Genet 2007; 15: 485-493.
6. Cinnioglu C, King R, Kivisild T et al: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia. Hum Genet 2004; 114: 127-148.
7. Luis: The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for bidirectional corridors of human migrations (vol 74, pg 532, 2004). Am J Hum Genet 2004; 74: 788-788.
8. Cadenas AM, Zhivotovsky LA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA, Herrera RJ: Y-chromosome diversity characterizes the Gulf of Oman. Eur J Hum Genet 2008; 16: 374-386.
9. Regueiro M, Cadenas AM, Gayden T, Underhill PA, Herrera RJ: Iran: tricontinental nexus for Y-chromosome driven migration. Hum Hered 2006; 61: 132-143.
10. Di Christofaro,J. et al. Hindu Kush, Afghanistan as a terminus of both west Asian and east Asian gene flows. PLoS One (in press)
11. Grugni V, Battaglia V, Hooshiar Kashani B et al: Ancient migratory events in the Middle East: new clues from the Y-chromosome variation of modern Iranians. PLoS One 2012; 7: e41252.
12. Chiaroni J, King RJ, Myres NM et al: The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations. Eur J Hum Genet 2010; 18: 348-353.
13. Sengupta S, Zhivotovsky LA, King R et al: Polarity and temporality of high-resolution y-chromosome distributions in India identify both indigenous and exogenous expansions and reveal minor genetic influence of Central Asian pastoralists. Am J Hum Genet 2006; 78: 202-221.
14. Fornarino S, Pala M, Battaglia V et al: Mitochondrial and Y-chromosome diversity of the Tharus (Nepal): a reservoir of genetic variation. Bmc Evolutionary Biology 2009; 9.
15. Behar DM, Thomas MG, Skorecki K et al: Multiple origins of Ashkenazi Levites: Y chromosome evidence for both Near Eastern and European ancestries. Am J Hum Genet 2003; 73: 768-779.
16. Behar DM, Yunusbayev B, Metspalu M et al: The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people. Nature 2010; 466: 238-242
17. Rootsi S, Behar DM, Jarve M et al: Phylogenetic applications of whole Y-chromosome sequences and the Near Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Levites. Nat Commun 2013; 4: 2928.

[Longbowman]

It would have been higher in East Germany than West Germany anyway. Your premise is flawed.