How much of R1a (what %) could there be in West Germany before WW2 ???

[Longbowman]

Rapes never change demographics because females either abort pregnancies or kill such babies after birth. And Soviet rapes would have brought a lot of Central and East Asian HGs too, because the Red Army was very multi-ethnic (as multi-ethnic as modern Sweden or London).

However, you apparently did not read my posts on page 1 at all. There I explained who brought this R1a. In Britain they have different subclades of R1a than in West Germany. AFAIK, most of British R1a is "Norwegian" Z284 - right? It was brought there by Scandinavians.

Right, so you think Germany's R1a changed from 1-3 to 15 which is seemingly without cause.

[Peterski]

It's for this reason mtDNA are more diverse in any European population than Y-DNA.

No, the reason is because conquerors more often kill males than females.

They usually take females as war booty.

so you think Germany's R1a changed from 1-3 to 15 which is seemingly without cause.

There is no as much as 15% of R1a in West Germany, read again. And not "without cause" but due to post-WW2 immigration of eastern Germans, who were heavily R1a due to being largely descendants of Germanized West Slavs and Prussians (from the latter they also absorbed N1c).

[Rugevit]

I have seen studies from peer-reviewed journals which took their samples from just one city, and - moreover - small samples... You really have too much trust, it is better to take things with a grain of salt and carefully check their reliability.

Do you understand English? Underhil et al (30+ researchers) are current authority on R1a clade. The size of sample for Poles is 103, while for Belarusians 263.

[Rugevit]

No, the reason is because conquerors more often kill males than females. They usually take females as war booty.

You are clueless.

[Peterski]

Sample for Poles is 1/3 of sample for Belarusians even though Poland has 4 times more people than Belarus? And from how many places can be a sample of 103 - one or two? ...

[Rugevit]

Sample for Poles is 1/3 of sample for Belarusians even though Poland has 4 times more people than Belarus? And from how many places can be a sample of 103 - one or two? ...

In many clinical trials sample sizes are no more than 200 subjects.The sample size affects confidence interval (margin of error). Having a large sample size will narrow confidence interval. This sample size of 103 is sufficient for Poland , as longs subjects were selected randomly. Sample size below 50 maybe considered low.

[Peterski]

In fact mtDNA can be perfectly used for tracing migrations (especially since Y-DNA among aDNA is very rare, mtDNA is more common). Here are some other studies which used mtDNA to trace immigrations and population replacement events in prehistoric and ancient Scandinavia:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0011898

And also these studies: Malmström et al. 2009, Skoglund et al. 2012, Lazaridis et al. 2014, Szécsényi-Nagy et al. 2014, Skoglund & Malmström et al. 2014.

[Rugevit]

Poles have less R1a than eastern Slavs in relative and absolute numbers. Poles came from Ukraine. Just accept these facts.

[Peterski]

This sample size of 103 is sufficient for Poland

103 cannot be from many places, and therefore it is certainly too small.

I told you, that there are large differences between R1a frequencies in various regions of Poland...

From Eupedia's forum:

http://s12.postimg.org/atb28q6r1/Chart_Regional_HGs.png

BTW - I have a question to everyone, especially to Matbir (since he seems to be familiar with this stuff).

Can you tell me what exactly is haplogroup K-M9 (or simply K) from this study? I don't think it is ancestral K:

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

It is a study of Y-DNA haplogroups of inhabitants of Greater Poland (Wielkopolska). Sample size is 201, and 19% are "K-M9".

Maybe it is possible to check what haplorgoups are hidden under this K-M9 by using this tool from Matbir's post:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post434451

YPredictor (I don't know exactly how to use it though I will try to figure it out, but maybe Matbir can help):

http://predictor.ydna.ru/

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I also made a chart of regional distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups in various parts of Poland.

I used sources quoted by Matbir in his post (link) when I could find them, and data from his post when I couldn't find sources he used - but he only provided data for R1a, I1 and I2 haplogroups, so maybe he can fill in the gaps in my chart?:

http://postimg.org/image/r4b651j8p/

Where it was possible, I listed cities/regions in order from highest frequency (top) to lowest frequency (bottom) for each HG.

So for Suwałki are listed first in case of N3, because they have the highest % of this HQ (Lublin has the lowest % of it):



Wybrzeże = Polish coast
Pn. Polska = Northern Poland
Kaszuby = Kashubians (Kashubs)
Mazowsze = Mazovia
Kociewie = the Kociewiacy
Ślązacy = Polish-speaking native Upper Silesians
Kurpie = (see below)

PS: I used obsolete names for haplogroups N3 and E3b because Wiik in his 2008 study was using these names.

And I wanted to stick to what the source says.

The highest percent of N3 (N1c) haplogroup is in north-eastern Poland (Suwalki - 11,0%) and in Kurpie region (6,4%).

Kurpie region is located near the original Medieval boundary between Old Prussian tribes and Polish tribes.

The same website which has data for Ślązacy and Polski Spisz also has data for native Mazurs and Warmiaks (Poles from East Prussia) - I didn't include this in my chart but maybe I will modify it later and include Mazurs & Warmaks. I'm not sure how reliable is this data, but it also shows a higher % of N1c haplogroup than average. Which confirms assimilation of Old Prussians into Polish settlers in that region.

According to the Russian study I quoted before, average for N1c in entire Poland is almost 6% (5,8%)

According to Wiik's 2008 study this average for entire Poland is lower - just below 4% (3,7%). And this average is an average from all 8 regional samples he took (his samples from 8 cities combined - 913).

I think this just the margin of statistical error, and a matter of where a study takes samples from big (and how big samples from which region). Probably ca. 5% of this HG in Poland - as Arvistro wrote - is correct.

[Peterski]

By the way:

You don't trace migrations by checking frequencies of a clade, but by checking its diversity and age. Place from which migration occured is the place with greatest diversity - but not necessarily greatest frequency! More mutations occured where presence of a clade is older, where it was earlier.

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Peter Gwozdz is also an authority on R1a.