Premarital Sex

[Lutiferre]

IMO, my religion ( Paganism,) teaches that prematrial sex is healthy if done in safe and knowledgeable manner.

That's not the moral ideal I've heard of in the case of the paganism of my ancestors. There, marriage was certainly an important thing, as important as ever, and girls were many times promised away, which would make premarital sex a disgrace and shame the honour of the family.

I had sex on Yule at the age of 16, in the back of a car, and while i don't think it was a mistake it also helped me to understand my body and to get comfortable with what was going on with my body.

What is that, I feel something bulging out of my throat... *cough*white trash*cough*. Sorry, I had something stuck in my throat.

[Black Turlogh]

It is something unnatural though. Hence it is crazy.

How's that? As far as I can see, the argument that temperance = unnatural = crazy is a logical fallacy.

[The Lawspeaker]

How's that? As far as I can see, the argument that temperance = unnatural = crazy is a logical fallacy.

What indigenous people (not effed up by Christianity) do you know that follows temperance ?

And before Christianity took over our own ancestors didn't seem to have followed (apart from those in the priesthood) the practice either.

[Svarog]

That's not the moral ideal I've heard of in the case of the paganism of my ancestors. There, marriage was certainly an important thing, as important as ever, and girls were many times promised away, which would make premarital sex a disgrace and shame the honour of the family.

I have to agree with this post, most ancient 'pagan' religions did forbid premarital sex and would consider having it a disgrace and shameful, certainly not the Persians or Babylonians but am pretty sure Slavs and Germanic people did.

But times changes just as anything else, even if i were a virgin again I'd still go for sex rather than 'marriage quest'.

[Cato]

Certain early Christian cults taught free love iirc, luft might be able to help me out with this. I'm pretty sure that these groups were as scandalous to the Christians as, say, the Bacchantes, who were kicked out of Rome itself at one point for their practices, were to the ancient pagans.

Moderns who think that paganism was, and is, some kind of free-love movement are wrong or that pagans have no equivalent to Christian or Buddhist celibacy are ignorant of such groups as the Pythagorians and Stoics. Or, in the case of heathen Germanic folk, the severe penalties for adultery (drowned in a bog, for example, the same or similar penalties also applied to male homosexuality).

[Lutiferre]

Certain early Christian cults taught free love iirc, luft might be able to help me out with this. I'm pretty sure that these groups were as scandalous to the Christians as, say, the Bacchantes, who were kicked out of Rome itself at one point for their practices, were to the ancient pagans.

Moderns who think that paganism was, and is, some kind of free-love movement are wrong or that pagans have no equivalent to Christian or Buddhist celibacy are ignorant of such groups as the Pythagorians and Stoics. Or, in the case of heathen Germanic folk, the severe penalties for adultery (drowned in a bog, for example, the same penalties applied to homosexuality).

Exactly. I can only speak about Germanic pagans, for whom premarital sex, adultery and other sexual immorality was certainly not acceptable and as you note, the penalties were not light. It would surprise me if honour killings were unknown to them. Honour was much more important back then, and a disobedient girl who has sex without the permission of the father (to marry) would be in big trouble. People do not seem to understand the grave importance of sexual unions for social structures back then and the seriousness of trespassing these social structures by unmandated sexual activity.

But "paganism" is a retarded word in itself, which means nothing, because there is not and has never been any unitary phenomenon of "pagans". It simply means non-Christians.

[Rachel]

That's not the moral ideal I've heard of in the case of the paganism of my ancestors. There, marriage was certainly an important thing, as important as ever, and girls were many times promised away, which would make premarital sex a disgrace and shame the honour of the family.

What is that, I feel something bulging out of my throat... *cough*white trash*cough*. Sorry, I had something stuck in my throat.

1st Point: how i was raised to be a pagan differs now in the 21st century then in ancient and tribal times.

And 2nd Point, if i am white trash in your eyes so be it, but where i come from and the area in which i grew up i know children in middle school who have had their second kid! So i am quite proud i got to my junior year before spreading my legs.

[Murphy]

So i am quite proud i got to my junior year before spreading my legs.

Wow. It really says so much about American society, in fact society as a whole, when this is an accomplishment.

Regards,
Eóin.

[Lutiferre]

1st Point: how i was raised to be a pagan differs now in the 21st century then in ancient and tribal times.

It doesn't just differ. It has no connection. "Pagan" means simply non-Christian, or in other words, it means nothing for someone who isn't himself a Christian in terms of religious tradition, continuity and content.

And 2nd Point, if i am white trash in your eyes so be it, but where i come from and the area in which i grew up i know children in middle school who have had their second kid! So i am quite proud i got to my junior year before spreading my legs.

That would not be the trailer park perchance...

[Cato]

Exactly. I can only speak about Germanic pagans, for whom premarital sex, adultery and other sexual immorality was certainly not acceptable and as you note, the penalties were not light. It would surprise me if honour killings were unknown to them. Honour was much more important back then, and a disobedient girl who has sex without the permission of the father (to marry) would be in big trouble.

But "paganism" is a retarded word in itself, which means nothing, because there is not and has never been any unitary phenomenon of "pagans". It simply means non-Christians.

The sexual escapades of the great heroes are embellishments, and shouldn't be taken to represent ancient paganism as a whole. Sexually morality was different, of course, but the idea that orgiastic displays of lust were ripe in ancient times is patent nonsense. Such activities often filled people with horror, such as when the Roman Senate banished the followers of Bacchus out of the city during pepublican times.

I find pagan an unsavory but useful term. If, for example, I said I'm "a Stoic follower of Athena," in everyday speech, who would really understand me? It's for this reason that I try to follow the advice of Epictetus and avoid metaphysical discourse with those who would misunderstand/misinterpret it.

Also, pagan tends to conjure up images of new age freaks and weirdos in the minds of some, but I'm not really addressing the majority when I use the term pagan or heathen. In the spirit of Alain de Benoist, I merely regard many modern neo-paganisms as a rejection of Judeo-Christian mores rather than an attempt to [re]create paganism anew in a world seriously in need of metaphysical guidance. This is the position taken by Anton LeVay, the indulgence in sensual pleasures as a means to reject Jehovah and the religious foundations of the Bible.