Merkel misled Germans

[ikki]

Oh yeah, how about our demands for islands?
heard germans are asking for kreta, finns going for rhodos... as guarantees for the debt.

Well, in my view what good would such islands be. Much better to demand 1L ouzo/cent unpaid.
At best some 320 billion liters of ouzo, or each finn getting 1000L a year... for over 60 years Damn that would be fun, signing out your yearly dose

[The Lawspeaker]

What about we give Greece those 2 billion euro's and we demand a couple of islands and limitless amounts of ouzo and retsina for the coming century.

[RoyBatty]

Thats not just their fault, because the rating agencies constantly put them under pressure, making credits more and more expensive, so that Greece can't get money from the international market to an acceptable price any more.

Thats also because of the relatively late reaction of the other EU-states and the lack of a guarantee, which would have largely eliminated the rating agencies and speculators attack.

Now that they are in such a situation, they have to borrow almost all money they need in the next time from the other EU-states, because the interest rates are totally insane and inacceptable "the market" demands now.

The whole mess is a pre-arranged "Capitalist" con by the Banksters. I use "Capitalist" in quotation marks because of course it isn't really Capitalism at work but fraud - a cleverly designed fraud concocted between the banks and EU / Greek politicians to ensnare Greece and turn them into Serfs.

The same things are being done to other Western Countries (USA + EU) but so far the effects have been less extreme on the general population than in Greece.

It doesn't take a genius to understand that when big supposedly "Capitalist" Corporations and Banks get to privatise their profits but SOCIALISE THEIR DEBTS meaning that WE THE TAXPAYERS HAVE TO STUMP UP THE MONEY FOR THEIR INEVITABLE FAILURES and then WATCH HOW THEY USE OUR MONEY TO BUY OUT OUR COUNTRIES AND LAND FROM UNDER OUR FEET TURNING US INTO SERFS that we are being assaulted by the vilest most evil Internationalist Mafia known to humanity.

Forget the boring fake "terrorism threat" and "Islam is out to get us" BS. Whatever damage a handful of ragtag Friends of Allah cause is insignificant compared to the havoc and destruction the Zionist Banksters are causing.

The only way to take our countries back is to deny them access to our land, markets and economies, to place banks under STATE CONTROL and to get rid of our current corrupt bought and paid for fake "democracy" and clone politicians who all work for the same Banksters.

[ikki]

neither would iceland have been in any that serious problem, uness for that insidious piece of legislation... state guaranteeing banks...

That is one piece of law that has to go, and if that does away with banking, then so be it. Its not like they serve any kind of meaningful job paying intrest on depositions or on lending for say industrial projects.
If a company needs the money, they might aswell issue bonds, or print more shares.

[Agrippa]

neither would iceland have been in any that serious problem, uness for that insidious piece of legislation... state guaranteeing banks...

That is one piece of law that has to go, and if that does away with banking, then so be it. Its not like they serve any kind of meaningful job paying intrest on depositions or on lending for say industrial projects.
If a company needs the money, they might aswell issue bonds, or print more shares.

The problem comes from the independent Central Banks, which are not that independent at all anyway, especially that of the FED-system and the fractional banking system as such.

Companies really need credits, they need the flow of money. If that stops you can really expect in every country a crisis which might let the crisis of the 1930's look like a picnic in the park.

If the state doesnt react then, make up a state owned back and a debt free new fiat currency, you are a slave in a nightmare.

Gold and Silver? Guess who owns it and can speculate with it like with the money we have right now, the same plutocratic institutions and people.

In most European countries, without money flow in a recession, you can really begin to plant potatoes in your garden if you have some space, because it might be the only thing you get to eat for quite some time...

[SwordoftheVistula]

If you make such an idiotic plan which won't work for the economy and people, you are an even greater idiot if accepting it!

That was no help, thats not even a plan, but just the plan for a complete degradation of the Greek economy and social system.

Reasonable economic scientists which strongly oppose the financial aid for Greece, even want the Greeks go out of the Eurozone, like Joachim Starbatty said in an absolutely clear manner, that this program will completely ruin Greece and MAKE IT a bottomless pit!

And for becoming that bottomless pit for the Neoliberal interests in Europe, the Greeks should cheer? How dumb are they supposed to be?

The bailout plan is a bad idea any way you look at it, but these rioters are more angry about the austerity measures, which needed to be imposed anyways. This would have come to a head years ago, except joining the Euro (with faked statistics) allowed them to borrow money at an unnaturally low rate and prolong the system for years. The rioters are mad that they might no longer be able to get a cushy government job where they jack around for 30 years and then retire with a generous pension, which they shouldn't have been able to do in the first place. It's so out of control, they don't even have any idea how many government workers they have, so probably they have no clue what, if anything, all these workers are doing or supposed to be doing either.

Companies really need credits, they need the flow of money.

And that's why we need banks and stock markets, to provide that.

[Agrippa]

but these rioters are more angry about the austerity measures, which needed to be imposed anyways.

Thats the destructive Neoliberal IMF plan and its deadly. Measures should have been taken much earlier and corruption in Greece is omnipresent, as well as tax-fraud etc., but they didnt do anything about those problems, they just ruined the base for their own domestic market and for those which have not too much to live already.

Really no way out of that, it will just put them into an even deeper recession.

And that's why we need banks and stock markets, to provide that.

Yes. But not necessarily a private Central bank, no fractional banking system like we have it no, not an uncontrolled stock market with absurd financial products, derivates etc.

Remind you, some of those things are not that old, talking about some of the financial products and the derivates, they being here not much longer than a decade, some even shorter! They just opened the pandoras box by changing the law in the USA!

[Vulpix]

Remind you, some of those things are not that old, talking about some of the financial products and the derivates, they being here not much longer than a decade, some even shorter! They just opened the pandoras box by changing the law in the USA!

Derivatives were first devised long ago, originally for agricultural purposes.

The history of derivatives is surprisingly longer than what most people think. Some texts even find the existence of the characteristics of derivative contracts in incidents of Mahabharata. Traces of derivative contracts can even be found in incidents that date back to the ages before Jesus Christ.

However, the advent of modern day derivative contracts is attributed to the need for farmers to protect themselves from any decline in the price of their crops due to delayed monsoon, or overproduction.

The first 'futures' contracts can be traced to the Yodoya rice market in Osaka, Japan around 1650. These were evidently standardised contracts, which made them much like today's futures.

The Chicago Board of Trade (CBOT), the largest derivative exchange in the world, was established in 1848 where forward contracts on various commodities were standardised around 1865. From then on, futures contracts have remained more or less in the same form, as we know them today.

Derivatives have had a long presence in India. The commodity derivative market has been functioning in India since the nineteenth century with organized trading in cotton through the establishment of Cotton Trade Association in 1875. Since then contracts on various other commodities have been introduced as well.

Source

What has changed in the past decade was the explosive growth and development of financial derivatives, with those dodgy CDOs as an example in primis.

[Agrippa]

Derivatives were first devised long ago, originally for agricultural purposes.

What has changed in the past decade was the explosive growth and development of financial derivatives, with those dodgy CDOs as an example in primis.

Thats correct of course, should have been more precise. up

Its worth to note though that even the old derivatives were constantly used for frauds and uncontrolled speculation, like with the "Tulip Mania", close to the times when the first Central Banks were founded, which I consider as one possible starting point for what we might consider "modern Capitalism" with all its merits and deficiencies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

[Klärchen]

State elections in Germany are often of marginal importance. But Sunday's vote in North Rhine-Westphalia has profound implications for Chancellor Angela Merkel, Germany's political landscape and the future of the Social Democrats. Here, a guide to the issues to watch out for.

North Rhine-Westphalia Votes