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Thread: R1a1a among Germans

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    the Baltic Sea, at that time called Mare Suevicum or Mare Germanicum
    Oceanus Sarmaticus could as well be found in Ancient sources as a name for the Baltic Sea.

    Plus several other names, so I don't know why does English wikipedia promote some names over others!

  2. #142
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    As for discussion about Celts from pages 11 and before:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hevo
    The Northern Belgae tribes were probably only Celtized.
    What is the difference between "Celts" and "Celticized" or "Germanics" and "Germanized" ??? No difference.

    They were Celticized but not Celticized Germanics, i.e. they had not been Germanic before becoming Celtic.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse89
    Here in America traditionally the only real Americans were Germanic peoples. Now everyone is an American according to Jewish intellectuals from the 1920s.
    And this is written by a person who openly admitted that his surname is Non-Germanic but originating from Celtic Bretons from Britanny in North-Western France. Ethnic groups in the USA in year 1790 according to calculations / estimations by Abraham D. Lavender:

    English - 48%
    Black African - 19%
    Scottish & Scotch-Irish - 12,8%
    German - 7,2%
    Irish - 4,7%
    Welsh - 3,5%
    Dutch - 2,5%
    French - 1,7%
    Jewish - 0,25%
    Swedish - 0,2%
    others - rest

    This is from "United States Ethnic Groups in 1790..." by Abraham D. Lavender, published in 1989.

    By the way - the only "real Americans" were Native Americans.

  4. #144
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    More on Goths:

    From Guy Halsall's book "Barbarian Migration and the Roman West", Cambridge University Press 2007:

    Page 132:

    "The Cernjachov culture is a mixture of all sorts of influences but most come from the existing cultures in the region. It has been argued that it evolves directly from the Wielbark culture of the lower Vistula and that the spread from Wielbark to Cernjachov is archaeological proof of the Goths’ migration from the shores of the Baltic. This notion should not be entirely rejected but it needs considerable modification. The source for the Gothic migration from Scandinavia is Jordanes’ Getica, which is deeply problematic and certainly cannot be used as evidence for migration. The Wielbark culture begins earlier than the Cernjachov but its later phases cover the same period as the latter. There is thus no chronological development from one to the other. Furthermore, although the Wielbark culture does spread up the Vistula during its history, its geographical overlap with the Cernjachov culture is minimal. These facts make it improbable that the Cernjachov culture was descended from the Wielbark. Although it is often claimed that Cernjachov metalwork derives from Wielbark types, close examination reveals no more than a few types with general similarities to Wielbark analogues. Migration from the Wielbark territories is also proposed from the supposedly distinctive mix of cremation and inhumation. However, burial customs are rarely static and more than one area of barbaricum employed, at various times, a mixture of rites. The fourth century, in particular, saw widespread change in such practices. This evidence will not support the idea of a substantial migration."

    Guy Halsall essentially confirms what Michael Kulikowski wrote in his "Rome’s Gothic Wars from the Third Century to Alaric" (Cambridge University Press), 2006. There is no archeologicall evidence of any substantial migration of Wielbark culture south and it is very improbable that the Cernjachov culture was descended from the Wielbark culture. We know that Wielbark culture was still thriving in Poland in 410 A.D. when Goths sacked Rome and there is no evidence that it migrated anywhere.

    Guy Halsall writes on page 134:

    "There were two principal Gothic groups before 376 AD, although Peter Heather argues convincingly that this oversimplifies the situation. We know most about the western confederacy, the Tervingi, inhabiting the lands north of the lower Danube. Beyond them, on the steppes, lay the Greuthungi, although whether the Greuthungi comprised all the non-Tervingian Goths is debatable."

    In the beginning of the 3rd century Goths were present along the Black Sea shore and raided the Roman Empire from that area:



    According to some linguists - like prof. Frederik Kortland, "The Origin of the Goths" - Goths arrived to the Black Sea shore from Southern Germany:

    http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art198e.pdf

    "Witold Mańczak has argued that Gothic is closer to Upper German than to Middle German, closer to High German than to Low German, closer to German than to Scandinavian, closer to Danish than to Swedish, and that the original homeland of the Goths must therefore be located in the southernmost part of the Germanic territories, not in Scandinavia (1982, 1984, 1987a, 1987b, 1992). I think that his argument is correct and that it is time to abandon Iordanes’ classic view that the Goths came from Scandinavia. We must therefore reconsider the grounds for adopting the latter position and the reasons why it always has remained popular."

    The "southernmost part of the Germanic territories" was near the Roman frontier indeed.

    It is possible that they were groups of mercenaries hired by Greek cities for protection. When they saw how weak Greek cities were they sacked them exactly as they did in 410 with Rome. Then they extended their influence into the steppe and north of the lower Danube.
    Last edited by Litvinski; 01-27-2015 at 12:30 PM.

  5. #145
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    It is possible that they were groups of mercenaries hired by Greek cities for protection.

    When they saw how weak Greek cities were they sacked them exactly as they did in 410 with Rome.
    The same happened in Britain - according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle it was a Romano-Briton leader, Vortigern, who first hired Anglo-Saxon mercenaries, and they later betrayed him:

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/medieval.asp

    A.D. 443. This year sent the Britons over sea to Rome, and begged assistance against the Picts; but they had none, for the Romans were at war with Atila, king of the Huns. Then sent they to the Angles, and requested the same from the nobles of that nation.



    A.D. 449. This year Marcian and Valentinian assumed the empire, and reigned seven winters. In their days Hengest and Horsa, invited by Wurtgern, king of the Britons to his assistance, landed in Britain in a place that is called Ipwinesfleet; first of all to support the Britons, but they afterwards fought against them.

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