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Thread: Bulgars were Turkic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crn Volk View Post
    List of Turkic of dynasties and countries. Surprise, surprise look who makes the list...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...untries#Europe
    It was not Bulgars' fault if Slavs did not have a noble caste back then. Turkic folks (along with Mongols) were ''Germans of the Orient'' in many aspects, including providing Oriental cultures and states with their upper class, military elites and ruling dynasties.

    You must not forget how much Avars and Bulgars contributed to Slavic folks, not only in their spread all over the place, but also Bulgar state providing Slavonic Orthodox culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kundur View Post
    It was not Bulgars' fault if Slavs did not have a noble caste back then. Turkic folks (along with Mongols) were ''Germans of the Orient'' in many aspects, including providing Oriental cultures and states with their upper class, military elites and ruling dynasties.

    You must not forget how much Avars and Bulgars contributed to Slavic folks, not only in their spread all over the place, but also Bulgar state providing Slavonic Orthodox culture.
    Rubbish. Slavs began arriving in the Balkans earlier than Avars and Bulgars became involved;


    The first Slavic raid south of the Danube was recorded by Procopius, who mentions an attack of the Antes, "who dwell close to the Sclaveni", probably in 518.[4][5]
    Infact, they at times handed the Avars their arses on a plate

    Daurentius (fl. 577–579), the first Slavic chieftain recorded by name, was sent an Avar embassy requesting his Slavs to accept Avar suzerainty and pay tribute, because the Avars knew that the Slavs had amassed great wealth after repeatedly plundering the Balkans. Daurentius reportedly retorted that "Others do not conquer our land, we conquer theirs [...] so it shall always be for us", and had the envoys slain.[17] Bayan then campaigned (in 578) against Daurentius' people, with aid from the Byzantines, and set fire to many of their settlements, although this did not stop the Slavic raids deep into the Byzantine Empire.[18] In 578, a large army of Sclaveni devastated Thrace and other areas.[19] In the 580s, the Antes were bribed to attack Sclaveni settlements.[11]

    John of Ephesus noted in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country."
    In fact the 1st Slavic state founded in 631 AD (Samo's Empire/Moravia) was much earlier than the Turkic Bulgarian state founded in 681AD, which became Slavicized as the Turkic Bulgars wished to become European, becoming Christian and adopting the Slavic tongue -obviously self-loathing their Turko-Asiatic roots. Both Avars and Bulgars disappeared leaving no genetic, cultural or linguistic traits in Europe -cucks.

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    Something new The video: Research of geneticists from Harvard and archaeologists from NAIM - the National Archaeological Museum of Bulgaria on the origin of the Bulgarians, first results.
    ...Even if a man lives well, he dies and another one comes into existence. Let the one who comes later upon seeing this inscription remember the one who had made it. And the name is Omurtag, Kanasubigi.

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    The text was taken from a video interview with Svetoslav Stamov
    Hello, my name is Svetoslav Stamov, an anthropologist. I graduated from Duke University in the States, where I worked for a time as a bachelor's degree teacher. I am currently working for Dr. Reich's team at Harvard University in Bulgaria. And I help in another team, which is entirely Bulgarian, from Bulgarian archaeologists at the National Institute of Archeology with a museum in Sofia
    First of all, I must point out that the initiator of the research is actually the journal "Bulgarian Science", which you publish. And I can say that in addition to popularizing science, this journal participates in a very serious international project, and in its role as initiator . As this project is expected to address unanswered questions related to Bulgarian history and past, which have remained open for two centuries, despite the efforts of generations of Bulgarian historians and archaeologists.
    Namely - the origin of the proto-Bulgarians, the origin of the southern Slavs and the connection between the modern Bulgarians and the populations that lived before us on the Balkan Peninsula.
    This project started as an initiative of your magazine, for which many thanks to you and the team that publishes the magazine. Bulgarian archaeologists from the National Institute of Archeology later joined the project, and eventually on one initiative we contacted the Laboratory of Genetic Research of Dr. David Reich of Harvard University. We agreed on the sequencing of 500 genetic samples from the Bulgarian past, collected from bone material from different eras, to clarify, in detail, completely and once and for all, if such a thing is possible, the origin of modern Bulgarians, proto-Bulgarians, Slavs and the connection of modern Bulgarians. with the ancient populations of the Balkan Peninsula until the Bronze Age.
    The research is extremely large, and the sequencing of ancient DNA is a complex technological and very expensive process. Dr. Reich's genetic laboratory was extremely generous in providing full funding for the sequencing, which of course will be done by them and will cost approximately $ 5 million. All this is absolutely free for Bulgarian science and I can say that the contribution of the magazine "Bulgarian Science" to the science of Bulgaria is very, very real.
    I must say that there is some background. Dr. Todor Chobanov and I took the initial steps of this study last year. We worked entirely voluntarily, but the genetic materials were collected from third places, not from Bulgaria, and our research was published a few months ago.
    It focused on the connection between proto-Bulgarians from the First Kingdom and early Sarmatians from the Saltovo-Mayak culture. Our study was published in the Proceedings of the Bulgarian Academy of Science, sometime in the middle of this year. Rather, in this study, we were actually able to formulate the questions. That is, the first part of it was to understand what we do not know and what we want to know, we managed to formulate this more or less. The second part, however, had to answer the questions. Practically the entire staff of the Institute of Archeology participates here, headed by its director Dr. Hristo Popov and of course we have the support of Dr. David Reich and his laboratory at Harvard, as well as his desire to help Bulgarian history and archeology, to put their positions to the whole world in a very strong study to seek publication in the highest mediums of dissemination of scientific messages. I mean Science magazine (your namesake) and Nature magazine.


    Are there any results already, have they been sent, what is happening?


    Yes. So the first results are available, they are only from the removed material from two skeletons. One - from the end of the First Kingdom, from the time of Simeon the Great. And the second sample that was sent is from the beginning of the Second Bulgarian Kingdom, from the time of Kaloyan and the Cumans.
    So we already have the first result of a sequenced Bulgarian from the time of Simeon, but since everything is still under publication and research and we expect more results, I will not go into details about these first results, except for one detail. We found the Y-chromosome haplogroup, which is passed down through the paternal line, and it is quite surprising to some extent. The abbreviation under which it goes is Q2A1A2. This is the definition of the male chromosomal haplogroup, which is passed from father to son in all generations. Unlike autosomal DNA, it tells us only a small part of the story, but it also tells us something we do not know, but Bulgarian historians and archaeologists have suspected it for a very long time.


    First, let me clarify that the skeleton is from the village of Samovodene, from a secondary burial in a Neolithic necropolis, which, however, was used as a tomb during the First Kingdom. With radiocarbon dating from Harvard, they found that the year of this man's death, with an accuracy of +/- 20 years - between 880 and 900, or the end of the reign of Boris and the beginning of the reign of Simeon (Golden Age). He was most likely a soldier or a high-ranking military leader, we are not entirely sure, but this is a militaristic funeral, so to speak.
    Its haplogroup originates very far from Bulgaria - the area of ​​Lake Baikal. Which supports the idea that the original proto-Bulgarians, or more precisely their predecessors, some centuries ago or rather millennia ago, came here from the Baikal region. This is a haplogroup that is not found in Europe and very clearly suggests that a new nation appeared on the territory of Bulgaria in the early Middle Ages. It is probably about the proto-Bulgarians, without being completely sure, because at that time when this man lived, Bulgaria had already joined the remains of the Avar Haganate to itself, and the same haplogroup was identified by Hungarian scientists at a burial from the Avar Haganate era. at the Avar mound. So there is no guarantee that the person is proto-Bulgarian, but we will sequence another 200 and 500 samples and then we will get a much more complete picture.
    But the initial results of this study confirm the old hypothesis of V. Zlatarski about the Far Eastern origin of at least some of the people in the proto-Bulgarian tribe. And how exactly the Far East is, so within the framework of the absurd, I can tell you that the first Indian to be identified in America, from the Clovis culture, is from the same haplogroup. It literally does not occur west of Lake Baikal, but only east of it and in America, it is a Paleo-Siberian population. 92% of the northern ketas, a small and miraculously surviving Yenisei group, are from this haplogroup. Like the haplogroup, or in fact the elements of the Ket language, they are also established in the old Xiongnu empire, which rivals China and lies in the territory north of it. So it may be directly or indirectly related to some extent to future European Huns.


    There is a great discussion in Bulgaria about the origin of the proto-Bulgarians - whether they are Proto-Turks, their language says that they are Proto-Turks, their culture shows that they are Iranians and more precisely Sarmatians. While the haplogroup tells us something third. At least in the beginning they were a Paleo-Siberian group, as this haplogroup is not found in either the Turks or the Proto-Turks, it is found in more ancient peoples who are even more eastern than them and are more associated with the American Indians than with European groups.
    I know it sounds absurd, but this is the first result we get - the group is from the east coast of Lake Baikal, where it originated during the Bronze Age.
    For mitochondrial DNA we have two results - what is transmitted through the maternal line is the haplogroup of mitochondrial DNA - U5A2A. This is a haplogroup found in every second Scythian mound in Eurasia. In antiquity so far, whatever has been sequenced to people with this haplogroup, they are only from Scythian mounds and from nowhere else. People from this group were found from Pazirik in Altai to Glinoe, which is located in Moldova.
    Here I want to focus on Glinoe, which is an old Scythian culture in Moldova, which has formally disappeared, was destroyed at the end of the 2nd century BC. It is suspiciously close and stands in the way of the Asparuhov proto-Bulgarians, and is also within the scope of Old Great Bulgaria. There are 11 people sequenced by it, 6 of them are from exactly the same haplogroup, which we identified in both the First and the Second Bulgarian Kingdom. Let me emphasize once again that this haplogroup, of course, is still found in Bulgaria today. It has been entirely associated with the migration of Scythian groups since very ancient times, from 1500 BC. to about 2 century BC.


    These are the first results, but I have to make a third reservation - this is a man from the end of the First Bulgarian Kingdom. We can talk about him as a person of potential proto-Bulgarian origin, but he may also be a Slav from those living on the territory of the Avar Haganate, possibly with an Avar father or great-grandfather, who may have been of Far Eastern origin. And this haplogroup, the Scythian, is also found in many of the modern Slavic ethnic groups, so I cannot rule out at the moment that we are actually talking about the skeleton of a Slavic warrior, or at least a member of the Slavic ethnic group from the two main constituents of the First Bulgarian Kingdom.
    This is super interesting, how much new data can come out and how many new questions we can start asking ourselves, what really happened and how Bulgarians have something in common with the Indians in America.


    The natives will not like it at all. *Laugh*
    Yes, absolutely. But this is exactly what the new technologies give - new answers, after which we will certainly ask even more questions. But in your opinion, as a specialist, how many new tests need to be done to get a more or less normal picture of what happened to the proto-Bulgarians, or at least to have a clear idea of ​​where the proto-Bulgarians came from on this land, how many tribes, etc. .n.?


    Well, the more, the better, it's supposed to be. But I think, on the order of what we agreed with Harvard, between 200 and 500 samples will be enough.
    Now, I want to clarify that the study will not only deal with the proto-Bulgarians, although they are an extremely central issue. It will also deal with the origins of the Balkan Slavs and the contribution of ancient groups living in the Balkans, such as the Thracians, Illyrians, Peons, Macedonians and even the nameless Bronze Age groups, which are also extremely interesting. In fact, we already have the first results for them. So far this was the proto-Bulgarian section, we have the first results for sequenced Thracians and for sequenced possibly Hittite burials and Trojan burials from the territory of Bulgaria.
    But the results are still unpublished and the readers of Bulgarian Science are practically the first to learn about them. They are very interesting and at the moment I am very hesitant what part of them to share, because there is no publication and we are currently working very intensively on the issue. But we have results from the Ezero culture, from Southeastern Bulgaria, which is from the early Bronze Age and which seems to connect the people of this culture with the future Hittites and Trojans. This has been confirmed by archeology many times and has been known for at least half a century. But now we see the genetic parallels between the two. Some of these ancient groups from the Bronze Age in one way or another have survived to this day in our country Bulgarians, as we also carry a certain amount of blood and genes from these same people, perhaps in the range of between 5 and 10%, which connects us with the Hittites, ancient Anatolia and the Trojans. There is a huge processing of the results before they are published, but among them there are huge curiosities from now on. One of them is from the necropolis in Merichleri ​​from the Early Bronze Age and in another necropolis in Tsaribrod (the older of the two), these are mound necropolises from the Yamna culture in the Caucasus, of people who migrated here in Bulgaria and connected between you are. They came from the haplogroup R1A, namely Z-93, which is the haplogroup again of the Scythian, but more of the Indo-Aryan tribes, the future Indo-Aryans, who later conquered India. But one of the tribes of the Yamna culture seems to have strayed and arrived in the Balkans instead of going to India. And so by chance, because archaeologists and geneticists have chosen between 260 burial mounds from this period, they have chosen only 3-4 and have come across exactly this extremely ancient group, which is from the time before the Indo-European group was divided into Iranians, Indians and Slavs, they were still one people at the time with the same genomes. And yes, one of these groups is among what we call Thracian tribes, but these are not Thracians. We have results from both the Early Iron Age and the Late Bronze Age, which are possibly Thracian, but I will keep them a secret at this stage, as I do not want to provoke speculation.


    From the Middle Bronze Age we also have very interesting results, which in turn connect the populations of today's Bulgaria with the future Mycenaeans. Bulgaria during the Bronze Age is a treasure trove of genes, as well as a treasury of archaeological materials. From a genetic point of view here we can see the trajectories of very interesting populations, the most absurd is the Indo-Aryans, but also the Mycenaean Greeks, who must have arrived in Mycenae from somewhere. Their possible trajectories are either through Asia Minor or through the Balkans. At this stage they seem to have passed through Bulgaria, lived here for several centuries, then descended to the south, where they mingled with the people of Minoan Crete to create the Achaean and Mycenaean culture and the first Greek-speaking civilization in the Aegean region.
    There are many more results, but as I said, the big focus is on the proto-Bulgarians and the Slavs. One more thing I forgot to add - we have another sequenced proto-Bulgarian, who, however, is one of the Alcek Bulgarians in Hungary. And here I hasten to say that it is in some contradiction with the haplogroup from Baikal, but this man is 90% identical to modern Bulgarians and is associated with the Alans of the Saltovo-Mayak culture, which suggests that this proto-Bulgarian tribe left a long time ago. from Lake Baikal. We don't even know if they started there with the ethnonym Bulgarians or some other. But in the Caucasus it has mixed with Alanian, Sarmatian and even Caucasian groups and the core, the core of the proto-Bulgarians, at least judging by this skeleton of an Alcek Bulgarian, this core is not from Baikal. There is a nuance there that cannot be mistaken because it connects us to the Indians. But let's say so - 9/10 of the population history of this tribe has passed in the Caucasus region, in the Sarmatian-Alanian and Caucasian environment. For me, the most interesting thing was that this man is almost indistinguishable from modern Bulgarians, which suggests that either the proto-Bulgarians mixed with the Slavs in Hungary or they are actually a much larger component of the modern Bulgarian nation than we think they are. they were some small tribe. And when I look at a proto-Bulgarian from the 6th or 7th century, how close he is to modern Bulgarians in terms of population genetics, this tells me something that many others believe that proto-Bulgarians have a very significant genetic influence in modern Bulgarians and we are in the first place proto-Bulgarians. But this is something very preliminary and has not been confirmed by the results of the First Bulgarian Kingdom, it is from Hungary. We have not yet analyzed the autosomal DNA from here, which I personally expect to say the same, but we must see it first.
    Lots of interesting things, really answering questions that everyone asked themselves when they were in school or university, but here comes modern science that has the capacity to answer a lot of questions. I thank you for the detailed answers, although there are still many materials that need to be processed. When to expect the first major publications in Science, Nature?


    2021 will be the earliest. But I can assure you that you will learn them before that and life and health we will be able to comment on them even before they appeared in Nature and Science.
    I thank you for the interview and I want to take this opportunity to address Bulgarian archaeologists and Bulgarian history buffs. We need help, that's one thing. The second thing is that Bulgarian history is full of unresolved issues related to different populations and historical events. Friends and fellow citizens, if any of you have an unresolved issue that you want to address, now is the time to do so. The situation is extremely favorable to solve as many issues as possible from the point of view of population genetics. Sequencing an ancient genome costs $ 10,000, and the lab, as part of the project, will do it for free, as long as it has something to work with. If anyone has an idea or concept for something that can be proven by genetics, please contact Petar Teodosiev (petar@nauka.bg) or me to discuss things.
    I know that in Bulgaria no one has enough money, but if someone thinks that he is able to help finance the project from the Bulgarian side - more funding means more sequencing of skeletons from Bulgaria and more answers. Feel free to do so, this is a window available that has only been open for three months and has been extended until the New Year, as long as sequences can be made. During this time, we can sequence basically everything that someone asked of Antiquity, but to address a specific historical problem. I believe that there are many historians and archaeologists who have data on where skeletons are and how they should be sampled, what happened and who we are, where we come from, why we are here. And I believe a lot of people are asking these questions, and they could use that window that Harvard is giving now.


    Speeches Svetoslav Stamov and Bulgarian Archaeologists in collaboration with geneticists from Harvard University explore the origins of the Bulgarians - in the video we present the first results. The Bulgarian scientific organization is NIM (National Archaeological Institute with Museum at BAS), and on the American side are Professor David Reich from the Archaeogenetics Laboratory at Harvard and the famous archaeologist Dr. David Anthony with the assistance of Svetoslav Stamov.
    ...Even if a man lives well, he dies and another one comes into existence. Let the one who comes later upon seeing this inscription remember the one who had made it. And the name is Omurtag, Kanasubigi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crn Volk View Post
    Rubbish. Slavs began arriving in the Balkans earlier than Avars and Bulgars became involved;




    Infact, they at times handed the Avars their arses on a plate



    In fact the 1st Slavic state founded in 631 AD (Samo's Empire/Moravia) was much earlier than the Turkic Bulgarian state founded in 681AD, which became Slavicized as the Turkic Bulgars wished to become European, becoming Christian and adopting the Slavic tongue -obviously self-loathing their Turko-Asiatic roots. Both Avars and Bulgars disappeared leaving no genetic, cultural or linguistic traits in Europe -cucks.
    The Samo's Empire was an insignificant state, for this reason survived few time.
    If were not for the Bulgarian empire, the Slavic population lived like hippies.
    Also, when Bulgaria become an important cultural center and a powerful reign, the elites were already slavic, so we can say thanks to the Tataro-Mongol (like your people love to call them) wich give an upgrade to Slavic people in the balkan, despite leaving very few genetic traits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bimo View Post
    The Samo's Empire was an insignificant state, for this reason survived few time.
    If were not for the Bulgarian empire, the Slavic population lived like hippies.
    Also, when Bulgaria become an important cultural center and a powerful reign, the elites were already slavic, so we can say thanks to the Tataro-Mongol (like your people love to call them) wich give an upgrade to Slavic people in the balkan, despite leaving very few genetic traits.
    How much is few? Even Wikipedia says Bulgarians have about 5% Central Asian-Uralic DNA, I think most likely something like 10% is real. Look at results of model, what user andre created on last pages of thread '' Bulgars were Irano-Caucasian''

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    Quote Originally Posted by bimo View Post
    The Samo's Empire was an insignificant state, for this reason survived few time.
    If were not for the Bulgarian empire, the Slavic population lived like hippies.
    Also, when Bulgaria become an important cultural center and a powerful reign, the elites were already slavic, so we can say thanks to the Tataro-Mongol (like your people love to call them) wich give an upgrade to Slavic people in the balkan, despite leaving very few genetic traits.
    I say thanks to the Byzantine monks brothers from Salonika for literacy and Christianity, not some yellow Asian horde

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abriekman View Post
    How much is few? Even Wikipedia says Bulgarians have about 5% Central Asian-Uralic DNA, I think most likely something like 10% is real. Look at results of model, what user andre created on last pages of thread '' Bulgars were Irano-Caucasian''
    Well, actually there are many theories about proto-Bulgarians, anyway the official one says they were Turkic, and yes their genetic impact on modern Bulgarians is about 5%, even if studies who claims they were iranic become more common in recent times
    Anyway is still hard to have many information about them, their history have quite a lot of mistery, only some ex-yugo (especially Macedonians) and Turks, seems to have the key for the truth, of course their truth, wich is the key for their national propaganda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abriekman View Post
    How much is few? Even Wikipedia says Bulgarians have about 5% Central Asian-Uralic DNA, I think most likely something like 10% is real. Look at results of model, what user andre created on last pages of thread '' Bulgars were Irano-Caucasian''
    Even Russians have at least 7% Euroasian dna on gedmatch.Slavs were already part Turkic.
    Target: PP
    Distance: 13.9037% / 0.13903704 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    85.2 Armenian_dynasty
    10.6 Minoan_short_med_Eastern_Crete
    4.2 Phoenician_settler

    Distance to: PP
    0.13943834 Armenian_dynasty
    0.14268276 Persian_incursions
    0.15227399 Thracian_settler
    0.15294616 Mycenaean_warrior
    0.15440099 Adriatic_illyrian_coast
    0.15476057 Illyrian_settler
    0.15593106 Minoan_short_med_Eastern_Crete
    0.15607298 Phoenician_settler
    0.15677407 Minoan_short_med_Southern_Crete

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