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Thread: Reich: Yamnaya brought R1b to Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by aherne View Post
    Once again, DNA evidence proves worthless in determining people ancestries.
    Not to mention a whole set of language families.


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    Quote Originally Posted by aherne View Post
    I find it odd. First of all, both Yamnaya and Corded Ware are expressions of same ethnic group with a huge cultural/racial overlap, as one would expect considering they were the first stage of breakup in Aryan ethnos.

    Then, why would Basques or Spanish people have such a high incidence of R1b, if that came from Aryans? It's obvious that while Iberians were influenced by Aryans (via Kelts), it's also clear that element CANNOT be dominant in people such as Basques (Iberian speakers) or Spaniards (Romanized Iberians).

    Also, I find it hard to believe that most of Western Europe ancestry is Aryan (as R1b would indicate). At every point in history, pre-Aryan elements have always been dominant in the mix that followed Keltic invasions (be it local CM or neolithic elements). Today this is even more apparent than it was in Antiquity: no more than 10% of Western Europeans are "Nordids".

    Once again, DNA evidence proves worthless in determining people ancestries.
    I don't know what "Nordids" have to do with it. The subject is discussed in depth on Eurogenes and the Anthrogenica thread. This paper will be published so more information will be available. They obviously must have R1b from Yamnaya to say that R1a and R1b came with the Indo-Europeans. You need to look to genetics for your answers. A poster on Anthrogenica said that it looks like R1b in Spain took a different route from R1b to the Isles because ANE is a lot higher in the Celtic Fringe of the Isles than Iberia. R1b in the Celtic Fringe is overwhelmingly L21 and in Iberia it is DF27. The clades split somewhere (poss the Rhine) and took different routes. It is well worth reading some threads on Anthrogenica as many on there are FTDNA project managers and know there stuff on ydna.

    I don't know how you can say that DNA proves worthless unless you don't have a good grasp of the subject because it has been extremely informative to me over the years. The R1b that came to the Isles was high in ANE whereas the R1b that went to Iberia got diluted possibly from mixing with Farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    The R1b that came to the Isles was high in ANE whereas the R1b that went to Iberia got diluted possibly from mixing with Farmers.
    You really want to make Siberians, Finnics, North Caucasians, Wolga-Urals, Central Asians, East and Southeast Asians and Native South Americans IE? Ironically these are the regions where ANE peaks btw.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Håkan View Post
    You really want to make Siberians, Finnics, North Caucasians, Wolga-Urals, Central Asians, East and Southeast Asians and Native South Americans IE? Ironically these are the regions where ANE peaks btw.
    Nothing to do with me. This is what Prof. Reich stated and is due to Steppe ancestry. You know that ANE was in Mal'ta Boy don't you? I've always wondered why I get quite high Amerindian for a European in Gedmatch calculators well it is related to ANE which I am high in. I've had my K8 done. I'm sure you know that the Indo-Europeans came from the Caspian Steppe area?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/sc...anted=all&_r=0

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    You are wrong. It spread too fast, and it was not found either in Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. The Western clades are too young, and their arrival are within the timeframe of the IE languages. It could not have been a coincidence!

    Quote Originally Posted by aherne View Post
    I find it odd. First of all, both Yamnaya and Corded Ware are expressions of same ethnic group with a huge cultural/racial overlap, as one would expect considering they were the first stage of breakup in Aryan ethnos.

    Then, why would Basques or Spanish people have such a high incidence of R1b, if that came from Aryans? It's obvious that while Iberians were influenced by Aryans (via Kelts), it's also clear that element CANNOT be dominant in people such as Basques (Iberian speakers) or Spaniards (Romanized Iberians).

    Also, I find it hard to believe that most of Western Europe ancestry is Aryan (as R1b would indicate). At every point in history, pre-Aryan elements have always been dominant in the mix that followed Keltic invasions (be it local CM or neolithic elements). Today this is even more apparent than it was in Antiquity: no more than 10% of Western Europeans are "Nordids".

    Once again, DNA evidence proves worthless in determining people ancestries.
    Last edited by curupira; 02-10-2015 at 10:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    Nothing to do with me. This is what Prof. Reich stated and is due to Steppe ancestry. You know that ANE was in Mal'ta Boy don't you? I've always wondered why I get quite high Amerindian for a European in Gedmatch calculators well it is related to ANE which I am high in. I've had my K8 done. I'm sure you know that the Indo-Europeans came from the Caspian Steppe area?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/sc...anted=all&_r=0
    Then Prof. Reich is an embedded scientist following eurocentric ideals. 24.000 years ago there was no steppe in Siberia or do you consider the Karitiana people from Brazil also of Steppe ancestry?

    Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of Malta. Alexeev (1998, 323) in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was“inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance".
    http://shinku.nichibun.ac.jp/jpub/pdf/jr/IJ1507.pdf

    There is no actual origin of IE's, there are too many theories. I don't believe in language families either.


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    Quote Originally Posted by curupira View Post
    You are wrong. It spread too fast, and it was not found either in Mesolhitic or Neolithic Europe. The Western clades are too young, and their arrival are within the timeframe of the IE languages. It could not have been a coincidence!
    The timeframe you are speaking about is conncected with R1a not R1b.


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    It sure is connected with R1b. R1b has not been found in neither Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. Do I have to repeat that? The timeframe of its arrival in Western Europe coincides with that of IE languages.

    This is what Roy King said:

    This is what Roy King said:

    I'm very certain that R1b will be found in the aDNA Samara/Yamnaya samples from Reich's comments. Phylogeographically it makes sense--M73 and M269 are sister clades and both are found among Bashkirs and other Middle Eastern/Central Asian populations, eg among Tajiks and in the Iranian samples along the South Caspian. L23 variance is actually highest in Pakistan! I've said very little for two reasons: 1) I am an academic and honor the peer review process and 2) I have been a major proponent of J2 convecting the first Neolithic farmers to Europe which is clearly now not the case, with G2a taking preeminence.
    That said, R1b surfed from the Eastern/Northern Caspian all the way into Europe with, probably, some R1b-L23 migrating from the Balkans into Anatolia, ferrying the Anatolian languages there.

    February 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM
    https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...8&isPopup=true

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Håkan View Post
    The timeframe you are speaking about is conncected with R1a not R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curupira View Post
    It sure is connected with R1b. R1b has not been found in neither Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. Do I have to repeat that? The timeframe of its arrival in Western Europe coincides with that of IE languages.

    This is what Roy King said:


    https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...8&isPopup=true
    What I was referring to was the IE timeframe not the agglutinating non-IE.


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    Exactly, the timeframe of IE languages in Western Europe coincides with the spread of R1b. There is no R1b in either Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. How could it get to Western Europe and become the dominant lineage there if not with the spread of IE languages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Håkan View Post
    What I was referring to was the IE timeframe not the agglutinating non-IE.

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